Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

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davidstvz
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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

I have two questions for those who know more about Myles and Marks guitars and performances.

1) Do they ever use a whammy bar? For Indoctrination, the dives in the main riff sound too clean and consistent to be prebends, but in the sound check video they're clearly doing prebends on fixed bridge guitars. I guess they could have used a bar on the album and use bends live since they can sound almost as good.

2) In show me a leader, does Mark play any of the guitar solos? I'm wondering if he even uses the higher strings for his parts. If not, then it might as well have just been a 6 string in G# standard.
Last edited by davidstvz on Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dolo
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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by Dolo »

They do use whammies. Mark's PRS with Dimebag sticker on it has a bar and it's mostly in Drop C#/Standard C#.
For Show Me a Leader Mark is on a 7-string and he does the main solo I believe. Myles plays the intro 'Spanish' one

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by Mr. Slash »

Mark even recycled that lick from his solo of "The Cage" from the third Tremonti record. I can't blame him, it's a really cool lick!

davidstvz
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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

I've finished my tuning spreadsheet based on the info in this thread. The best improvement is that You can view songs in album/track order, or tuning type. If viewing by tuning type all of your Standard shaped tunings are together, and your Drop D shapes are together and so on, so it gives you a bigger list of songs you can play from one tuning if you don't mind the being a half step or two low/high. Walk the Sky tunings are still somewhat preliminary, though I think 3/4 of the songs are accurate at this point. There are separate lines for songs with two different tunings and a column saying whose tuning it is.

Tunings are described as deviations from Standard tunings (so Standard (-1) rather than Eb Standard; and Drop D (-1) instead of Drop C# and so on). This was the only way to ensure unique tuning names. There's also a column showing the pitch letters (EADGBE and so on) and offsets from standard tuning (so -8 -8 -8 -8 -8 -8 for G# Standard) so you can quickly see exactly how to get the alternate tuning.

I tried to write some instructions on the 3rd tab for modifying the sheet (since it uses a bunch of complicated formulas) but if you're completely unfamiliar with Excel it will probably be difficult.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cpdc6spjok50d ... .xlsx?dl=0

For those who can't view Excel files at all, I'm planning to copy/paste the data into some other formats like text or PDFs and post those links too. I'll probably do that tomorrow.

davidstvz
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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

gmetzger wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:17 pm Here is a tab of In the Deep I made: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/al ... bs-3260351
I'm almost done my Guitar Pro tab of this. I need to add the bridge guitars, vocals and double check neck positions. I had the intro lead part messed up... should be right now.

https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/user/t ... OIeXsT12zd

Thanks for getting me started especially with the tuning and neck locations.

In the final analysis, the live tunings are definitely G# standard (8 semitones down) and Drop C# (-3 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1). If there is a Drop A# guitar (-8 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1) on the album it would only be needed for Myles to record a doubled version of Mark's rhythm parts which he doesn't play live. Do they even record like that live, or does Mark just do all of the doubles?

During the verses , I noticed a big difference from the album version. Mark plays chords live that during the verse that aren't on the album at all as best as I can tell. You hear these very delicate high pitched chords and nothing else. Myles is playing those live in the first verse, but an octave lower than recorded. For the second verse, he plays a lower pitched single note part which is similar to the pre-chorus part. During the pre-chorus part, it sounds like Mark is just chugging single notes on the album (or maybe two note power chords).

EDIT:

Well I couldn't finish it today. Maybe tomorrow.

davidstvz
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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

I'm going to make a separate "tab" thread for further updates. I don't want to fill up the tuning thread with tab discussion. I'd like to create a "master tab list" anyway with links to the best tabs for each song.

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

I bought the Fortress "Sound and Story" from Fret12 which includes a Fortress tab book supposedly reviewed by Mark (and Myles?). The tab book confirms most of the tunings including Myles alternate tunings except it says that for "All Ends Well" Myles is in DADGAD (-1) rather than Drop D (-1). HOWEVER, the transcription of Myles parts is clearly for Drop D (-1), so it's just a typo in the tuning chart for that song.

Just goes to show that even author-approved tabs aren't perfect.

EDIT: I should mention that I had one tuning wrong in my list. I incorrectly programmed Open G5. You can download it again or just go to the tuning pages and change the numerical columns (highlighted in yellow) for the Open D5 tunings to -2 0 0 2 3 -2.

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by Dolo »

Image

I've got it and Myles is listed as regular DADGBE half step down whereas Mark as Double Drop D half step down.

It looks better here: https://ibb.co/nRy7NKQ

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

That is so weird. My digital copy has DADGAD (-1) tuning, but like I said, the part is clearly transcribed for Drop D (-1). Myles first listed part is on the next page and it uses the 10th fret on the 5th and 6th strings which is correct for Drop D while DADGAD would require the 12th fret.

Junk quality image here, but shows the tuning and a part of Myles intro/verse riff:

https://pasteboard.co/JSaPRPV.png

EDIT

I wonder if you somehow have a newer/corrected version. But that's odd because the digital ought to be the most up to date. Maybe they "corrected" the digital version and introduced a mistake. The only other thing it could be is that the tuning really is DADGAD and they updated the tuning to make it right but didn't update the actual transcribed part... seems like a pretty silly thing to let slip so that's probably not it.

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by Dolo »

davidstvz wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:27 pm I wonder if you somehow have a newer/corrected version. But that's odd because the digital ought to be the most up to date. Maybe they "corrected" the digital version and introduced a mistake. The only other thing it could be is that the tuning really is DADGAD and they updated the tuning to make it right but didn't update the actual transcribed part... seems like a pretty silly thing to let slip so that's probably not it.
Not sure. It looks like the original, printed version. The thing is: the musicians themselves often have no clue what tuning they use. The bottom line is: the people who publish those tab books should verify these details themselves by taking a guitar in a certain tuning and playing the notes from the tab.

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

This tab book I think is a little different, because it wasn't produced by a giant megacorp which probably intentionally avoid artist interaction to avoid having any sand in the gears. They just want to get a book out and make money.

This tab book actually gives credit to the tabber who is a guy named Tim Tournier who it turns out is a (the?) AB guitar tech, tour manager and more for AB. He's in a great position to know the tunings used live at least. Fret12 claims the tab was at least "approved" by "Alter Bridge". Of course, it's a big tab and there's no way they scrutinized every single note. In any case, maybe I'll just ask the tabber. Here's his Twitter. In fact, he'd be a great person to ask about any tuning that is in doubt if it turns out he's the responsive sort!

https://twitter.com/timtournier

I'm pretty sure that Mark and Myles are well aware of the tunings they use when they're using them (though they might have different names for them), but they may forget how an album was recorded if they begin doing something differently live. It's hard to say.

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by Dolo »

Do you have the DVD? Do they mention the tunings before they demonstrate the parts? I do have it myself, would just need to look for it.

Tim actually happens to be on here every now and then.

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by Dolo »

double post

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

I don't have the DVD, but the digital "sound and story" comes with links to a bunch of vids. I assume it's the same stuff.

I just started watching some of it. They never mention tuning explicitly, certainly not at the start of a song where they really ought to. However, they break down each song into parts and discuss how to play it note by note. When talking about individual notes they both refer to strings by letter, but ignoring the fact that they're down a half step across the guitar. When Mark first uses the 1st string, he does mention that it's down a whole step (really down 1.5 steps once again, since the whole guitar is down half a step). He then refers to it as the D or high D string. Similarly, Myles refers to his 6th string as D and makes no special mention of the other strings. Once again, it's very obvious he's in Drop D (-1) just by listening and looking at his fingers.

For Bleed it Dry, Mark plays the intro riff and then says "this is in Drop B or A#". So apparently he does occasionally remember to mention that the guitar is really a half step down.

I'll watch more later. In any case, this is pretty well settled. All Ends Well has Mark in Double Drop D (-1) and Myles in Drop D (-1) just as the original post says.

I should add that the timing notated in the chorus is pretty mangled and the lead lick in the middle of Mark's part as pretty badly messed up. I wonder if your paper copy has that corrected as well.

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by Dolo »

davidstvz wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:31 pm I should add that the timing notated in the chorus is pretty mangled and the lead lick in the middle of Mark's part as pretty badly messed up. I wonder if your paper copy has that corrected as well.
I don't know, I've never played that song and I don't have my guitar set up to check it but here is how it looks like it the paper copy:

Image

Image

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

Ok, yours is the same as mine. Actually, I was somewhat mistaken. The notes are mostly correct but the timing is messed up. The strumming stops too early just before the lead bit and the lead bit (at the top of page 64) ought to be all in one measure instead of starting in the second to last measure. And the timing should either be 12 16th notes (if using 3/4 time) or 12 8th note triplets (if using 4/4 time).

They didn't bother to put any time or tempo marks. My guess is that the chorus is intended to be 4/4 triplets instead of a 3/4 waltz. If I ever complete the guitar pro, I'll probably have to convert the whole thing to 4/4 and 2/4 triplets just to retain my sanity while putting the drums in.

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by Dolo »

davidstvz wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:33 pm They didn't bother to put any time or tempo marks. My guess is that the chorus is intended to be 4/4 triplets instead of a 3/4 waltz. If I ever complete the guitar pro, I'll probably have to convert the whole thing to 4/4 and 2/4 triplets just to retain my sanity while putting the drums in.
Yeah. I was also quite surprised that there is no tempo or time signature notation. Maybe they assume that people know the songs well enough and can just feel this stuff, they just need the correct notes.

Also, the little bluesy solo after the intro in Lover is not tabbed out. Do they play it on the DVD?

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

There may be quite a lot that isn't tabbed out since they just presented the tab as major riffs and sections. I was punching in the notes for All Ends Well and 3 measures at the end of the pre-chorus aren't tabbed... and they're not at all an exact repeat of anything that came before. I tried to listen to the album and it's just so muddy.. I took a guess and turned out to be wrong. Turns out Mark did play through the full pre-chorus in the video, so I was able to easily tab it just from listening.

I just watched the Lover Intro video and Myles starts this one out and actually tells you the tuning (half step down, plus the "E string" dropped down to Db). There is no contribution from Mark in this video which is where he should have covered the small solo. There is the performance video for each song which I think I mentioned earlier. It shows both playing along to the record but it cuts around like a typical stage performance video and doesn't show hands for the full solo. These videos actually have vocals disabled for what it's worth. It might make a few parts easier to hear, but mostly I don't find the vocals ever get in the way of my hearing the guitars.

In any case, you can see what part of the neck Mark plays the solo on and the notes are easy to hear clearly since they're not too fast. This tab on UG seems to have it right or very nearly so (if you forgive the timing of the bends a little):

https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/al ... ro-1426784

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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by Dolo »

Well, I did not point that out because I cannot play it lol :D This is just something I noticed while going through that tab book.

It's a shame that they decide to put out something like that and it still seems half-assed.

Since we're on the topic there is a Learn to Play Alter Bridge DVD put out by LickLibrary a few years ago and it has the same problems. They just do not teach like 30% of the stuff you hear in the playthrough.


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Re: Alter Bridge/Creed/Mark Tremonti Tuning Master List

Post by davidstvz »

I can play a lot of AB, but the very fastest and most technical things I can't quite play. However, I can still *hear* them and tab them most of the time.

I can see why lessons and tabs may be incomplete. These things can't be huge money makers and they need to save somehow. As someone who makes tabs for free, I can opt to spend my time obsessing over details, but if I was doing it for money corners would be cut!

I still find the Fortress tab very useful. It's unfortunate it's not full tab of the songs, but it's still good for getting all of the major riffs exactly right. Solos are actually relatively easy to hear and tab most of the time, for me it's rhythm parts (and bass!) that are a real challenge in tabbing. Occasionally extremely fast parts of solos are very difficult. At this point I'm used to sleuthing and making educated guesses to get the tabs right. I was obsessed with Metallica's One for a few weeks earlier this year until I felt I had finally figured out the elusive part after the third chorus.

Unfortunately, there's just so much extra stuff that goes into an album. They overdub multiple guitars and add all kinds of flourishes that aren't played live. Then its' all mixed together in such a way that it's impossible to clearly pick out every note. At the end of the day, I think I just need to make a tab sound good. It's nice to be exactly accurate (especially with tuning) but as long as what's coming out of the guitar sounds right and the finger positions don't make it hard to play, then I can rest easy.

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