Pawns & Kings (Alter Bridge - VII)

[rscotta831]

You may be right about all of that, but why does Mark insist on staying wired in concert when nearly every other guitarist has gone wireless? He said, “I can tell the difference.” If they “absolutely don’t care,” why continue to walk around with a cord attached?

Force of habit.

I don't buy that because Mark said a few years ago that Myles talked him into wearing in-ear monitors to protect his hearing. So Mark broke that 20+ year force of habit.

And when did they start sounding “really bad”? When they began working with Elvis?

Pretty much.
I reember being shocked by the vocals when first heard Blackbird. It was overproduced (e.g. unneded voice effects everywhere, loudness war on White Knuckles), but was still tolerable overall.
Slip to the Void immediately told me something was wrong in terms loudness war (the soft intro is louder than the rest of the song).
Fortress was an improvement, and I can live with that one.
TLH was exhausting.
And the level of guitar distortion on some of the harder WTS songs was insane.
Those last two albums are very hard to listen to as far as I'm concerned, and the mixes focus way too much on the kick drums.

Going by this, you feel ODR sonically sounds better than AB III? If so, I completely disagree. Or are you solely referring to brickwalling?

Remember, circa 2008 was the peak of the loudness wars *cough* Death Magnetic *cough*, so albums that were released at or near 2008 do suffer somewhat at least partially from that universal mistake.

Kick drums were WAY more a focus on WTS than TLH. Night and day. My 13.5" subs tell me so. TLH is pitiful when it comes to kick drums.

I also find it fascinating, that people who don't like Elvis' work think their opinion is the absolute truth, and he's objectively bad at his job despite how others feel - including the band members themselves. If he's good enough for the band and they consider him to be basically the fifth member of Alter Bridge, why isn't he good enough for you (not speaking at you, Dan, just the Elvis haters)? You have the right to your opinion, but that's all it is - YOUR opinion. Others may feel differently. If the band likes him and his work, then his work is just as much part of their creative decision as the songs themselves. There's no distinction between "the songs themselves" and "the production," it's all part and parcel of the song. If you criticize him and his work, then you criticize them for their decision.

I totally disagree with your last sentence: once a record is out, it also belongs to fans of the band, and they're entitled to critique it.
I can make a distinction between the content of a song and the way it was recorded. I love AB's music, but overall, the sound quality is not up to the same standards.
Myles and Mark are free to make bas decisions, and just because people are fans shouldn't mean they must accept it all.

Also, I think Mark, Myles and their band pals are blinded and in complete denial, when it comes to Elvis and sound quality. It feels to me like they're trying to convince themselves he's still the guy, when a lot of people around the Internet (not trolls) keep telling them there's a big issue with sound quality.
We know Myles has tinnitus, so I don't trust him when tocomes to sonics. His ears are just shot, and as a consequence, he can't hear what actually sounds good.
Mark on the other, has said he didn't have hearing issues, and I can't understand for the life of me how a guy who had such great sounding records in 1999 and 2004 can think WTS or TLS sound great.

His last sentence told me if you criticize Elvis for the sound of the album, you also have to criticize AB for signing off on it.

Since Mark has signed off on such poor sounding AB records since 2004, what is your opinion on how Mark's solo records sound?

[anguyen92]

AB is headlining? That's surprising. I thought Halestorm was more popular. I think they're coming out with a new record this year, right?

AB took Halestorm in Europe as an opener in 2013. AB has maintained their popularity in Europe since then and whilst both bands has been close to or near arena headliners in the UK, in other parts of Europe, AB would get the headliner nod.

It's amazing to see how some people overreact because somebody dared to criticise their favourite band (or their producer for that matter) and they call these people 'haters' while presented with reasonable logic and strong arguments.

It just feels like, to me, it feels way more tiring to read those comments (as valid as it may be) here than say in a Dream Theater forum (where they are extremely picky with their music, but they are always a cordial bunch when it comes to a variety of acts and genres) where there's a fair amount of AB fans and they also honestly feel like a change needs to be made in production to freshen themselves, but it doesn't feel berating for a lack of a better word.

AB is headlining? That's surprising. I thought Halestorm was more popular. I think they're coming out with a new record this year, right?

I’d imagine in the US they are but in Europe it’s flipped.

It's a bit tricky to tell with Halestorm nowadays. I know in SoCal, they can comfortably headline the Anaheim House of Blues (which holds 2,000 people all GA). AB can comfortably headline at the Wiltern in LA (1,800 people, mostly GA with some seats at the upper levels that goes for a premium in price). Yet, last year, Halestorm played for an hour co-headlining with Evanescence in a mostly seated building that holds 5,000 people and they are going to play a show in early September in an outdoor amphitheater that holds 6,000 people with having The Struts open which I'm hoping to go to for a cheap ticket.

[riemslag1]

You may be right about all of that, but why does Mark insist on staying wired in concert when nearly every other guitarist has gone wireless? He said, “I can tell the difference.” If they “absolutely don’t care,” why continue to walk around with a cord attached?

Force of habit.

And when did they start sounding “really bad”? When they began working with Elvis?

Pretty much.
I reember being shocked by the vocals when first heard Blackbird. It was overproduced (e.g. unneded voice effects everywhere, loudness war on White Knuckles), but was still tolerable overall.
Slip to the Void immediately told me something was wrong in terms loudness war (the soft intro is louder than the rest of the song).
Fortress was an improvement, and I can live with that one.
TLH was exhausting.
And the level of guitar distortion on some of the harder WTS songs was insane.
Those last two albums are very hard to listen to as far as I'm concerned, and the mixes focus way too much on the kick drums.

I find the Elvis discussion fascinating because I don't think I've ever seen a review which has singled his work out for criticism. I only ever see it on this forum really. I'm genuinely curious - are reviewers/journalists in the music world not especially good at critiquing the production side of things?

Do reviewers still matter in 2022? They pretty much praise every record out there.
I never read any constructive criticism, and everything is pretty much always great.

The comments, on the other end, usually give you some real feedback.
On Ultimate Guitar, for instance, EVERY article about AB is filled with comments about Elvis, and I can promise you guys I didn't create multiple accounts to write them.

It's a good question. I would say that most reviewers focus solely on the music and they don't have any background to be able to assess the production quality. I mean, you can have an opinion about the mix as long as you have a pair of ears but the fact that you write album reviews doesn't mean you gotta be an audiophile.

I also find it fascinating, that people who don't like Elvis' work think their opinion is the absolute truth, and he's objectively bad at his job despite how others feel - including the band members themselves. If he's good enough for the band and they consider him to be basically the fifth member of Alter Bridge, why isn't he good enough for you (not speaking at you, Dan, just the Elvis haters)? You have the right to your opinion, but that's all it is - YOUR opinion. Others may feel differently. If the band likes him and his work, then his work is just as much part of their creative decision as the songs themselves. There's no distinction between "the songs themselves" and "the production," it's all part and parcel of the song. If you criticize him and his work, then you criticize them for their decision.

I totally disagree with your last sentence: once a record is out, it also belongs to fans of the band, and they're entitled to critique it.
I can make a distinction between the content of a song and the way it was recorded. I love AB's music, but overall, the sound quality is not up to the same standards.
Myles and Mark are free to make bas decisions, and just because people are fans shouldn't mean they must accept it all.

Also, I think Mark, Myles and their band pals are blinded and in complete denial, when it comes to Elvis and sound quality. It feels to me like they're trying to convince themselves he's still the guy, when a lot of people around the Internet (not trolls) keep telling them there's a big issue with sound quality.
We know Myles has tinnitus, so I don't trust him when tocomes to sonics. His ears are just shot, and as a consequence, he can't hear what actually sounds good.
Mark on the other, has said he didn't have hearing issues, and I can't understand for the life of me how a guy who had such great sounding records in 1999 and 2004 can think WTS or TLS sound great.

It's amazing to see how some people overreact because somebody dared to criticise their favourite band (or their producer for that matter) and they call these people 'haters' while presented with reasonable logic and strong arguments.

It's similar to cult mentality.
If you're a true fan, you must like it all!

Useless to discuss or argue these kind of things with a stubborn guy like this who considers his own opinions nothing less than the absolute truth. If you do not agree with him now you are supposed to be trapped in a cult. Serious ? He literally thinks you approve of all AB does if you don’t share his view on production. Of course he is entitled to have and share his view on it, but he just does not accept any other opinion on it than his own.
And it just will continue every upcoming album-cycle…………………

[Blackbirddd]

It's amazing to see how some people overreact because somebody dared to criticise their favourite band (or their producer for that matter) and they call these people 'haters' while presented with reasonable logic and strong arguments.

That sounds like 90% of people on AB related Facebook groups.

EDIT: I just got banned on the "ALTER BRIDGE" Facebook group by asking Tim in some post if the sound quality it's on the members of the band (When I know that that's obviously on the production/mixing/masterizing team), and he answered that that's 10000% on the band, lol, then he overreacted saying that I'm talking shit on Elvis and that he won't allow that, then banned me, unbelievable

[TenaciousBe]

I guess it's all "agree to disagree" territory, as I don't hear much difference between the sound quality of the last two albums vs. those that came before it. Maybe I'm just not that much of an audiophile, I just turn on the music and get lost in the content. Unless the production is severely egregious (*shakes fist at St. Anger*), I don't really notice.

[Blackbirddd]

I guess it's all "agree to disagree" territory, as I don't hear much difference between the sound quality of the last two albums vs. those that came before it. Maybe I'm just not that much of an audiophile, I just turn on the music and get lost in the content. Unless the production is severely egregious (*shakes fist at St. Anger*), I don't really notice.

Personally I can notice difference in sound quality when I compare any AB album to AB III and Fortress, to me their best sounding albums. I can hear intruments more separately and clearly.

I think the worst I’ve heart in terms of quality on AB was the first time I listened to the main riff on Wouldn’t You Rather, it sounds too compressed.

[Dolo]

Useless to discuss or argue these kind of things with a stubborn guy like this who considers his own opinions nothing less than the absolute truth. If you do not agree with him now you are supposed to be trapped in a cult. Serious ? He literally thinks you approve of all AB does if you don’t share his view on production. Of course he is entitled to have and share his view on it, but he just does not accept any other opinion on it than his own.
And it just will continue every upcoming album-cycle…………………

I respect everybody's opinion, it just shocked me that we've been having a pretty civil and substantive discussion on the topic and suddenly you felt the urge to use the word 'hater' which immediately lowered down the level of the discourse to absolute zero. That's what happens when you run out of arguments.

[TTournier]

Yea that’s not what happened, I gave you the boot because you do what you always do… you try to stir the pot just to be negative but mostly tagging me after I have told you a dozen times to leave me alone and not do that. you make 3 or 4 comments that are pointed towards me and delete them 6 mins after you post it… again, like always - then you try to twist the plot here to fit your narrative/ make yourself a victim. History repeating.. save the next step and don’t DM asking for help whenever you regain your mental stability. I’m not your therapist and I won’t tolerate you being a bully in any platform where I am an admin. If it happens here, I’ll point it out to the admin here and it will be up to them to sort per their protocols.

It's amazing to see how some people overreact because somebody dared to criticise their favourite band (or their producer for that matter) and they call these people 'haters' while presented with reasonable logic and strong arguments.

That sounds like 90% of people on AB related Facebook groups.

EDIT: I just got banned on the "ALTER BRIDGE" Facebook group by asking Tim in some post if the sound quality it's on the members of the band (When I know that that's obviously on the production/mixing/masterizing team), and he answered that that's 10000% on the band, lol, then he overreacted saying that I'm talking shit on Elvis and that he won't allow that, then banned me, unbelievable

[chtimixeur]

His last sentence told me if you criticize Elvis for the sound of the album, you also have to criticize AB for signing off on it.

They do what they want.
It's their band, and their artistic vision.
I just don't understand why they settle with a mediocre sound when any amateur band out there with a tiny budget manages to have a decent sounding album.
With the kind of budget AB has, every album of theirs should sound insanely good.

Since Mark has signed off on such poor sounding AB records since 2004, what is your opinion on how Mark's solo records sound?

They're even more flawed than the AB albums.
The song Cauterize is a perfect example: everything is overly compressed and muddy. Yuck.
Elvis can do alright with softer material (e.g. Myles' solo albums), but as soon as the music is harder and faster, he shows his limits. Mixing metal isn't that easy of a task.

Falling in Reverse and this Japanese band called Coldrain seems to be regulars when it comes to working with Elvis.

Eh. Not big names in my book.

Back in the day, Elvis worked with Chevelle. Did they keep hiring him again and again? Nope, because they've found better producers, and one of them is the amazing Joe Barresi. Now, that's a guy who'd do wonders with Alter Bridge, but since he's actually great at his job, lots of top tier bands wanna hire him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Barresi

Going by this, you feel ODR sonically sounds better than AB III? If so, I completely disagree.

Absolutely.
Everything is sonically more pleasing on ODR: the guitar tones, Myles' rawer vocals, the bass, the drums, the mixing.

Unless the production is severely egregious (*shakes fist at St. Anger*), I don't really notice.

Actually, aside from its ridiculous snare sound, St. Anger is actually a very-well produced and mixed album.
Bob Rock is a gifted engineer, and St. Anger didn't end up sounding like it did because of his lack of talent behind the console. It was definitely an artistic choice wanted by Lars, juts like the bass-less mix of And Justice For All. Since Lars is the boss in Metallica, Bob Rock just did what he was asked to.

Useless to discuss or argue these kind of things with a stubborn guy like this who considers his own opinions nothing less than the absolute truth. If you do not agree with him now you are supposed to be trapped in a cult. Serious ? He literally thinks you approve of all AB does if you don’t share his view on production. Of course he is entitled to have and share his view on it, but he just does not accept any other opinion on it than his own.

You may have a problem with me, but I don't have a problem with you.
We're having a discussion on a message board, and I'm just stating my opinion and answering the questions other members ask me.
I don't try and convince anyone. I just trust my ears, and I am open to other opinions. That being said, it's very unlikely anyone will manage to convince me Elvis is as great as both Mark and Myles claim he is.

[peapod0609]

They change guitars nearly every 2-3 songs in concert.

That's because they use different tunings.

Plus as well-noted on “Wouldn’t You Rather,” Elvis pushed Myles to make it better, so Elvis is a motivator.

It was rather Elvis who pushed for something like 'Wouldn't you Rather' at all because the song hadn't been there earlier. I would say it's a pretty average song for them.

There are several popular hard rock/metal bands who never change their tuning or guitars in concert…maybe once on a ballad. My sole point was to say they change tuning in concert so often because they are perfectionists. I watched them do this even on their 12-song co-tour with Skillet. They refuse to mail it in. In other words, they care deeply about how they sound. If they’re not raising a stink to Elvis about their sound, then they’re all in agreement. They’re not going to change producers after 15 yrs. They’re just not wired that way.

I was merely pointing out that Elvis pushed Myles to make the song, specifically the chorus, better (regardless if it’s an average song or not). That tells me he’s a motivator and doesn’t mind pushing a well-seasoned musician all the while maintaining professionalism, respect and friendship. Complete crapshoot if they were to sever that relationship.

I have been to quite a few rock/metal shows and I can't ever recall even one band not changing guitars at least once or twice. Just about every band I listen to uses quite a few tunings, so I am not sure what you're talking about.

The only exception I can really think of might be Korn, they play the majority of their songs on their 7 strings one full step down. But I am pretty sure they still have a few songs in different tunings, Coming Undone for instance I think is different. But every other band I've seen live changes guitars quite a bit too, it's not like it's some Alter Bridge only thing lol.

As mentioned above, Queensryche’s Michael Wilton played his same skull n bones guitar for an hour straight. This is my pic taken at the end…

That's cool and all but that's certainly the exception, not the rule. I've seen way more bands who switch their guitars multiple times for different tuned ones than guys who keep the same one the whole show.

[Blackbirddd]

Yea that’s not what happened, I gave you the boot because you do what you always do… you try to stir the pot just to be negative but mostly tagging me after I have told you a dozen times to leave me alone and not do that. you make 3 or 4 comments that are pointed towards me and delete them 6 mins after you post it… again, like always - then you try to twist the plot here to fit your narrative/ make yourself a victim. History repeating.. save the next step and don’t DM asking for help whenever you regain your mental stability. I’m not your therapist and I won’t tolerate you being a bully in any platform where I am an admin. If it happens here, I’ll point it out to the admin here and it will be up to them to sort per their protocols.

It's amazing to see how some people overreact because somebody dared to criticise their favourite band (or their producer for that matter) and they call these people 'haters' while presented with reasonable logic and strong arguments.

That sounds like 90% of people on AB related Facebook groups.

EDIT: I just got banned on the "ALTER BRIDGE" Facebook group by asking Tim in some post if the sound quality it's on the members of the band (When I know that that's obviously on the production/mixing/masterizing team), and he answered that that's 10000% on the band, lol, then he overreacted saying that I'm talking shit on Elvis and that he won't allow that, then banned me, unbelievable

You are blinded and you think that everything I say is negative, learn about criticism, learn about controlling your personal issues. You deleted the comments so it’s funny that you say that what I said it’s not what happened because that’s exactly what happened. You told me that “I’m not your friend so don’t tag me” Dude when you answer to someone on facebook it tag the person, what are you talking about with “Don’t tag me cause I’m not your friend” lmao, grow up already.

The DM I sent you like 3 years ago it was to make you understand that I’m a fan of the band and not a ‘hater’, and hopefully making you understand how things really are, but well, use it as something to make fun of, it’s ok

Edit: I deleted a comment that was duplicated, not 3 or 4 as you exaggerate.

[Timotheus]

save the next step and don’t DM asking for help whenever you regain your mental stability.

Handling conflicts with grace as always!

[rscotta831]

Since Mark has signed off on such poor sounding AB records since 2004, what is your opinion on how Mark's solo records sound?

They're even more flawed than the AB albums.
The song Cauterize is a perfect example: everything is overly compressed and muddy. Yuck.
Elvis can do alright with softer material (e.g. Myles' solo albums), but as soon as the music is harder and faster, he shows his limits. Mixing metal isn't that easy of a task.

Agreed that Cauterize is his worst sounding album. But I wouldn't say as a whole, his solo production is worse than AB's as a whole. I thought Dust (2016) and A Dying Machine (2018) were above average.

So with below-average produced albums, IMO, they both have one apiece (Cauterize and TLH). And those two albums are separated by one year.

All I Was (2012) and Marching In Time (2021) are his two best sounding albums, so perhaps that's a good sign the production is headed back in the right direction.

Although I will continue to say WTS, although not perfect sounding, was an above-average produced album, esp given the synths they introduced.

Going by this, you feel ODR sonically sounds better than AB III? If so, I completely disagree.

Absolutely.
Everything is sonically more pleasing on ODR: the guitar tones, Myles' rawer vocals, the bass, the drums, the mixing.

Agree to disagree. ABIII has a dynamic, which is clean, that ODR is missing.

[Blackbirddd]

I’m not sure about this but I assume that Dust and Cauterize songs were recording in the same period?

[TTournier]

I didn’t delete anything.. I was watching in real time as you would post and delete.. all of the “grow up” posts haha Come on dude, don’t lie about it.. like I don’t have a pile of screen grabs from over the years.

I have told you several times after several alterations with you to not talk to me or tag me in stuff, you try to engage regardless to the fact it has nothing to do with you… why? To push buttons.. I’ll just block ya. Had a long conversation with Myles about it last night actually, he agreed with my actions. Opinions are fine but the stirring the pot and trying to kick up shit isn’t going to work anymore.

You keep repeating what I am saying to you and putting it back to me, so let’s just end it here.

Yea that’s not what happened, I gave you the boot because you do what you always do… you try to stir the pot just to be negative but mostly tagging me after I have told you a dozen times to leave me alone and not do that. you make 3 or 4 comments that are pointed towards me and delete them 6 mins after you post it… again, like always - then you try to twist the plot here to fit your narrative/ make yourself a victim. History repeating.. save the next step and don’t DM asking for help whenever you regain your mental stability. I’m not your therapist and I won’t tolerate you being a bully in any platform where I am an admin. If it happens here, I’ll point it out to the admin here and it will be up to them to sort per their protocols.

It's amazing to see how some people overreact because somebody dared to criticise their favourite band (or their producer for that matter) and they call these people 'haters' while presented with reasonable logic and strong arguments.

That sounds like 90% of people on AB related Facebook groups.

EDIT: I just got banned on the "ALTER BRIDGE" Facebook group by asking Tim in some post if the sound quality it's on the members of the band (When I know that that's obviously on the production/mixing/masterizing team), and he answered that that's 10000% on the band, lol, then he overreacted saying that I'm talking shit on Elvis and that he won't allow that, then banned me, unbelievable

You are blinded and you think that everything I say is negative, learn about criticism, learn about controlling your personal issues. You deleted the comments so it’s funny that you say that what I said it’s not what happened because that’s exactly what happened. You told me that “I’m not your friend so don’t tag me” Dude when you answer to someone on facebook it tag the person, what are you talking about with “Don’t tag me cause I’m not your friend” lmao, grow up already.

The DM I sent you like 3 years ago it was to make you understand that I’m a fan of the band and not a ‘hater’, and hopefully making you understand how things really are, but well, use it as something to make fun of, it’s ok

Edit: I deleted a comment that was duplicated, not 3 or 4 as you exaggerate.

[TTournier]

save the next step and don’t DM asking for help whenever you regain your mental stability.

Handling conflicts with grace as always!

Ya know how this works..
if I say nothing, I’m a prick.
If I reply but the folks don’t like what I am saying, I’m a prick.
If I standup for myself or friends when people are being needless assholes, I’m a prick.

The golden rule, treat people the way that you’re treated. Don’t like it, don’t tag me. Im always respectful but if someone is a going to try to kick, I’ll kick back. Then, when they cry about “you shouldn’t do that because of your job.. blah blah blah” it’s a weak stance. Obviously I still have my job and have grown my company massively. So I win.

[Micky]

You know you 100% totally suck when the manager of the band tells you that even the lead singer things you should stop

Tim, most of us appreciate you and the updates you provide!

[Dan Dando]

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/new-a ... september/

I always forget how the typical timescale works, but if AB VII is due for September, when do you think we'll first see the album cover/hear the first single?

PS - Always cool to see your name here on the forum, Tim.

[TTournier]

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/new-a ... september/

I always forget how the typical timescale works, but if AB VII is due for September, when do you think we'll first see the album cover/hear the first single?

PS - Always cool to see your name here on the forum, Tim.

We have announcement coming in the next 48 hours. Things will follow suit from there.

[nagpo]

https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/new-a ... september/

I always forget how the typical timescale works, but if AB VII is due for September, when do you think we'll first see the album cover/hear the first single?

PS - Always cool to see your name here on the forum, Tim.

We have announcement coming in the next 48 hours. Things will follow suit from there.

Question: What does the band think about recording on analogue/tape? It has a real authentic and rich sound. Would they consider it? Has it been considered? I know most artists do digital

Edit: really excited for the announcement!