Breathe Appreciation Thread

[mikeyd23]

Few fans won't agree here and they are totally entitled to their opinion, but AB is not a band mean't to be recorded with hundreds of layers and dubs. They are a kickass band with 2 guitarists, a drummer and one of the most underrated and unheard bass players in Mr.Marshall(sadly, we do not get to hear him on AB albums that much), these musicians shouldn't have to hide behind the "NOISE" that seems to have become popular largely among the current generation of fans.

Actually, I'll bet most fans here agree with you on this part.

I, for one, certainly agree. That's what I always wanted AB to be after hearing ODR for the first time. I wanted them to be the rock band to remind the world what music is all about, which is simply real people writing from their heart and sounding like just that: real people. None of this... 25 of the same guy singing on one track garbage.

Alright, I'll be that guy that disagrees. I think the production on TLH could have been better, but I do think the warts it has are being greatly exaggerated here. I do think that a couple less guitar tracks layered here or there could have helped in places. I do think that a couple less vocal tracks layered here or there could have helped in places. But, and it's a huge but, the last two AB records have renewed my interest in the band after ABIII (which I like but consider their weakest effort). The song writing and direction of the band over the last two albums has been phenomenal.

Honestly, it's totally cool to not like these albums as much as ODR, everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion when it comes to music and art in general. I get that, I respect that, it's part of what makes art great, everyone perceives it differently. But to say this "is not a band mean't to be recorded with hundreds layers and dubs" come on. First off, the hundreds is an obvious exaggeration, but who are we to determine AB isn't meant to be this? Isn't that up to AB? Also, to label people that like the direction in a negative way and lump them into a "current generation of fans" is a little condescending to me. I've been a fan since ODR and love these new albums. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's hiding, doesn't mean it's noise, doesn't mean it's supposed to target some fictional niche group of their fans. And if you guys think because there are more guitars and vocals layered in a song, that somehow the band's music is less from the heart, I don't know what to tell you. Cradle and You Will Be Remembered. Lover and All Ends Well. To me, those songs are without question from the heart. Once again, just because you don't like those songs as much as Broken Wings or In Loving Memory doesn't mean they are disingenuous.

[Jaded Rescue]

Few fans won't agree here and they are totally entitled to their opinion, but AB is not a band mean't to be recorded with hundreds of layers and dubs. They are a kickass band with 2 guitarists, a drummer and one of the most underrated and unheard bass players in Mr.Marshall(sadly, we do not get to hear him on AB albums that much), these musicians shouldn't have to hide behind the "NOISE" that seems to have become popular largely among the current generation of fans.

Actually, I'll bet most fans here agree with you on this part.

I, for one, certainly agree. That's what I always wanted AB to be after hearing ODR for the first time. I wanted them to be the rock band to remind the world what music is all about, which is simply real people writing from their heart and sounding like just that: real people. None of this... 25 of the same guy singing on one track garbage.

Alright, I'll be that guy that disagrees. I think the production on TLH could have been better, but I do think the warts it has are being greatly exaggerated here. I do think that a couple less guitar tracks layered here or there could have helped in places. I do think that a couple less vocal tracks layered here or there could have helped in places. But, and it's a huge but, the last two AB records have renewed my interest in the band after ABIII (which I like but consider their weakest effort). The song writing and direction of the band over the last two albums has been phenomenal.

Honestly, it's totally cool to not like these albums as much as ODR, everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion when it comes to music and art in general. I get that, I respect that, it's part of what makes art great, everyone perceives it differently. But to say this "is not a band mean't to be recorded with hundreds layers and dubs" come on. First off, the hundreds is an obvious exaggeration, but who are we to determine AB isn't meant to be this? Isn't that up to AB? Also, to label people that like the direction in a negative way and lump them into a "current generation of fans" is a little condescending to me. I've been a fan since ODR and love these new albums. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's hiding, doesn't mean it's noise, doesn't mean it's supposed to target some fictional niche group of their fans. And if you guys think because there are more guitars and vocals layered in a song, that somehow the band's music is less from the heart, I don't know what to tell you. Cradle and You Will Be Remembered. Lover and All Ends Well. To me, those songs are without question from the heart. Once again, just because you don't like those songs as much as Broken Wings or In Loving Memory doesn't mean they are disingenuous.

It's not that my dislike for the song makes them disingenuous to me, it's that the songs sound disingenuous to me, and that makes me dislike them. I don't hear nearly as much emotion in Myles' voice anymore, and when I watch interviews with the guys regarding these latest albums they just don't seem all that excited about the material compared to, say, when they were writing Blackbird. It also doesn't help that the entire band looked pretty bored to me on that live stream. Something about this record to me feels like it was created out of obligation because fans were expecting it and the guys constantly say that AB is their "main focus" even though their actions at this point speak differently to me.

I think that the current divide (not to say that it's an ugly divide, I think we all manage to mostly be respectful on here) among AB fans comes down to how a lot of us define what we want out of music. Fans of the newer material like the complex songwriting, the intertwining of parts, and the showmanship of the band's musical abilities on a technical level. I think the fans more attached to ODR and Blackbird (like myself) are looking for catharsis, for an emotional outlet and songwriting that's more grounded in personal journeys and relating to each other as human beings on a smaller, personal level, as opposed to a more macro-level, "here's what's up in the world right now" kind of vibe that's very present on The Last Hero.

This isn't to say that either side of the fan base can't appreciate those qualities on the opposite side. I would never presume, for example, that fans of The Last Hero don't appreciate emotionally powerful songwriting and performance. Of course they probably do. I just think it's a matter of priorities. I like music best when it sounds as natural as possible, like it just flowed out of the person organically. And if that means it's less complex, then that's fine with me. I personally would rather have the band strumming chords and truly singing their heart out as opposed to showing off technical abilities. That's just my $0.02 though.

[mikeyd23]

It's not that my dislike for the song makes them disingenuous to me, it's that the songs sound disingenuous to me, and that makes me dislike them. I don't hear nearly as much emotion in Myles' voice anymore, and when I watch interviews with the guys regarding these latest albums they just don't seem all that excited about the material compared to, say, when they were writing Blackbird.

Yeah, I just have to respectfully disagree. Like I said before, see songs like Lover, All Ends Well, You Will Be Remembered, My Champion, and Cradle to the Grave. To me those songs are very, very different than the stuff on ODR, but I can draw just as much emotion from them.

It also doesn't help that the entire band looked pretty bored to me on that live stream. Something about this record to me feels like it was created out of obligation because fans were expecting it and the guys constantly say that AB is their "main focus" even though their actions at this point speak differently to me.

I don't really disagree with the comment on their live performances, but since they still play a ton from BB live, I don't think it's just simply a matter of: new AB songs=AB not being that into it. I think this has a lot to do with Tremonti and Slash and by extension Projected, Creed, and Marshall jamming with his bro and selling houses. I kid on the last part of course but that stuff is a symptom of the problem.

I think that the current divide (not to say that it's an ugly divide, I think we all manage to mostly be respectful on here) among AB fans comes down to how a lot of us define what we want out of music. Fans of the newer material like the complex songwriting, the intertwining of parts, and the showmanship of the band's musical abilities on a technical level. I think the fans more attached to ODR and Blackbird (like myself) are looking for catharsis, for an emotional outlet and songwriting that's more grounded in personal journeys and relating to each other as human beings on a smaller, personal level, as opposed to a more macro-level, "here's what's up in the world right now" kind of vibe that's very present on The Last Hero.

Good stuff there, fortunately there is another "group" people like me that like the newer complex structures, parts, etc... and still find the emotional and personality of the music connectable.

This isn't to say that either side of the fan base can't appreciate those qualities on the opposite side. I would never presume, for example, that fans of The Last Hero don't appreciate emotionally powerful songwriting and performance. Of course they probably do. I just think it's a matter of priorities. I like music best when it sounds as natural as possible, like it just flowed out of the person organically. And if that means it's less complex, then that's fine with me. I personally would rather have the band strumming chords and truly singing their heart out as opposed to showing off technical abilities. That's just my $0.02 though.

Fans of TLH absolutely can appreciate emotionally powerful songs, they prove that by being fans of TLH. Also - TLH isn't really that technical, I'd say the band stretched themselves on certain tracks in regards to song structure, but really there's nothing super technical, Dream Theater, crazy time signature changing, unison running, groundbreakingish stuff going on.

[Jaded Rescue]

Fans of TLH absolutely can appreciate emotionally powerful songs, they prove that by being fans of TLH. Also - TLH isn't really that technical, I'd say the band stretched themselves on certain tracks in regards to song structure, but really there's nothing super technical, Dream Theater, crazy time signature changing, unison running, groundbreakingish stuff going on.

Didn't want to muddy the thread by double quoting all of that, haha. But yeah, I see what you're saying. And when I said technical I just meant more so than they're previous work. I totally agree that they aren't on Dream Theater level by any means. I'm glad we can all share out different perspectives here peacefully!

[chtimixeur]

I don't hear nearly as much emotion in Myles' voice anymore

+1
This guy used to wear his heart on his sleeve, but nowadays, I just can't connect with him anymore.
It's not like he's not trying anymore, but I don't know, something's off, both live and in the studio.

[mikeyd23]

Didn't want to muddy the thread by double quoting all of that, haha. But yeah, I see what you're saying. And when I said technical I just meant more so than they're previous work. I totally agree that they aren't on Dream Theater level by any means. I'm glad we can all share out different perspectives here peacefully!

For sure, it's good discussion!

[Jaded Rescue]

I don't hear nearly as much emotion in Myles' voice anymore

+1
This guy used to wear his heart on his sleeve, but nowadays, I just can't connect with him anymore.
It's not like he's not trying anymore, but I don't know, something's off, both live and in the studio.

I think he became more concerned with what proper vocal technique is and I think there's a little bit of worrying too much of what people think of him there too.

As a vocalist myself, I can relate to the latter but you have to get past that to be an artist, in my opinion. Regarding the former... I think there's room for having good technique but also letting your emotions into your performance.

[gbruin]

Few fans won't agree here and they are totally entitled to their opinion, but AB is not a band mean't to be recorded with hundreds of layers and dubs. They are a kickass band with 2 guitarists, a drummer and one of the most underrated and unheard bass players in Mr.Marshall(sadly, we do not get to hear him on AB albums that much), these musicians shouldn't have to hide behind the "NOISE" that seems to have become popular largely among the current generation of fans.

Actually, I'll bet most fans here agree with you on this part.

I, for one, certainly agree. That's what I always wanted AB to be after hearing ODR for the first time. I wanted them to be the rock band to remind the world what music is all about, which is simply real people writing from their heart and sounding like just that: real people. None of this... 25 of the same guy singing on one track garbage.

Alright, I'll be that guy that disagrees. I think the production on TLH could have been better, but I do think the warts it has are being greatly exaggerated here. I do think that a couple less guitar tracks layered here or there could have helped in places. I do think that a couple less vocal tracks layered here or there could have helped in places. But, and it's a huge but, the last two AB records have renewed my interest in the band after ABIII (which I like but consider their weakest effort). The song writing and direction of the band over the last two albums has been phenomenal.

Honestly, it's totally cool to not like these albums as much as ODR, everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion when it comes to music and art in general. I get that, I respect that, it's part of what makes art great, everyone perceives it differently. But to say this "is not a band mean't to be recorded with hundreds layers and dubs" come on. First off, the hundreds is an obvious exaggeration, but who are we to determine AB isn't meant to be this? Isn't that up to AB? Also, to label people that like the direction in a negative way and lump them into a "current generation of fans" is a little condescending to me. I've been a fan since ODR and love these new albums. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's hiding, doesn't mean it's noise, doesn't mean it's supposed to target some fictional niche group of their fans. And if you guys think because there are more guitars and vocals layered in a song, that somehow the band's music is less from the heart, I don't know what to tell you. Cradle and You Will Be Remembered. Lover and All Ends Well. To me, those songs are without question from the heart. Once again, just because you don't like those songs as much as Broken Wings or In Loving Memory doesn't mean they are disingenuous.

I think we actually have a lot more in common on this one when we all get away from the superlatives. You agree that that a couple less guitar or vocal tracks could have helped and I feel the same way, though I also enjoy the complexity and craftsmanship that the last two albums have shown, too. I agree with you that the song writing and performances on Fortress and TLH were incredible and a big step up after ABIII, and Cradle and Lover are spectacular songs. The last chorus and outro of Lover still give me chills 3 years after that song/album came out. So I'm not saying they have to go all the way back to the relative simplicity of ODR. But there's also a point where the song is great as it is and the extra extra layers and effects don't add much for me.

I think we're pretty close to being in the same ballpark - or concert hall - on this one.

[mikeyd23]

I think we actually have a lot more in common on this one when we all get away from the superlatives. You agree that that a couple less guitar or vocal tracks could have helped and I feel the same way, though I also enjoy the complexity and craftsmanship that the last two albums have shown, too. I agree with you that the song writing and performances on Fortress and TLH were incredible and a big step up after ABIII, and Cradle and Lover are spectacular songs. The last chorus and outro of Lover still give me chills 3 years after that song/album came out. So I'm not saying they have to go all the way back to the relative simplicity of ODR. But there's also a point where the song is great as it is and the extra extra layers and effects don't add much for me.

I think we're pretty close to being in the same ballpark - or concert hall - on this one.

It sounds like we are certainly in the same ballpark. I guess what I was trying to get across was more in regards to some of the posting I've seen suggesting this isn't how AB should sound or this isn't how AB is meant to sound, etc... That isn't our call. It's perfectly valid to not like stylistic choices the group makes, but that's abundantly different than posting as if AB is doing something wrong because you (not you specifically gbruin I'm speaking broadly here) happen to not dig it as much. That's all.

[The Plotblocker]

I don't hear nearly as much emotion in Myles' voice anymore

This is exactly what me a my friend were discussing last night. Me and her discovered Alter Bridge together and have always doen the AB thing together with each new album, and yeah, we both agreed Myles rarely brings the emotion to his vocals any more. It is clear when you go back and listen to ODR, or even further with The Mayfield Four. The raw emotion on display on those records just does not seem to surface any more.

[Them Bones]

cuz they are not writing songs anymore, liker they said, they write pieces and add them up like puzzles and they usually complete writing for albums over a couple of months. A song needs time to grow, you can either take your time and write timeless music or churn out album after album for the masses to consume and take you up the commercial pedestal.

[mikeyd23]

cuz they are not writing songs anymore, liker they said, they write pieces and add them up like puzzles and they usually complete writing for albums over a couple of months. A song needs time to grow, you can either take your time and write timeless music or churn out album after album for the masses to consume and take you up the commercial pedestal.

This is the kind of stuff I was trying to address earlier in this thread. You seem like you don't like AB's TLH style as much as AB's ODR style (going waaay out on a limb with that assumption, I apologize if I'm incorrect). And that's perfectly valid, everyone's going to like what they like, that's great. But to speak in absolutes like this, come on.

"They aren't writing songs anymore", for real? Just because a process has changed that doesn't mean the result has. I can stand in my kitchen by myself and mix together the ingredients to make a cake. I can take my time and put all the needed pieces together on my own and guess what? The end result is a cake. Or... I could have a buddy come over and maybe if I mixed up the batter, he had made some icing or something and together we put the pieces together and guess what? It's still a cake. AB write songs. To suggest because the process of writing has changed, that means the result isn't a song is a stretch to say the least. You can argue the resulting songs aren't as good to your ears and that's your call, but to say they aren't songs isn't.

Also - some great songs have been written and recorded extremely quickly. Some great songs have taken years. The amount of time you spend on a song doesn't automatically make it bad or good. And since when has AB been a band of the masses that sit on a commercial pedestal?! Did I miss them rising to Kanye and Katy Perry levels of fame or something?

[Jaded Rescue]

cuz they are not writing songs anymore, liker they said, they write pieces and add them up like puzzles and they usually complete writing for albums over a couple of months. A song needs time to grow, you can either take your time and write timeless music or churn out album after album for the masses to consume and take you up the commercial pedestal.

This is the kind of stuff I was trying to address earlier in this thread. You seem like you don't like AB's TLH style as much as AB's ODR style (going waaay out on a limb with that assumption, I apologize if I'm incorrect). And that's perfectly valid, everyone's going to like what they like, that's great. But to speak in absolutes like this, come on.

"They aren't writing songs anymore", for real? Just because a process has changed that doesn't mean the result has. I can stand in my kitchen by myself and mix together the ingredients to make a cake. I can take my time and put all the needed pieces together on my own and guess what? The end result is a cake. Or... I could have a buddy come over and maybe if I mixed up the batter, he had made some icing or something and together we put the pieces together and guess what? It's still a cake. AB write songs. To suggest because the process of writing has changed, that means the result isn't a song is a stretch to say the least. You can argue the resulting songs aren't as good to your ears and that's your call, but to say they aren't songs isn't.

Also - some great songs have been written and recorded extremely quickly. Some great songs have taken years. The amount of time you spend on a song doesn't automatically make it bad or good. And since when has AB been a band of the masses that sit on a commercial pedestal?! Did I miss them rising to Kanye and Katy Perry levels of fame or something?

I see what you're saying, but I think the point that we're trying to make is that the cake analogy isn't perfect, because to us it's more like our friends came over and one person brought a cheeseburger, one person brought dog food, and one person brought wine, and then we mixed it up with cake batter and called it a "cake", but it's not really a cake at that point. Sure, some great songs are written and recorded in a day (like "I Won't Back Down" by Tom Petty) and some take time, but with AB it's more an issue to us of how they approach the process overall. It's not one whole piece of art that has a theme flowing through it. It's a Frankenstein's monster of parts that happen to be in the same key and tempo. That can be an accomplishment in and of itself, but it's not what we're looking for when we talk about them writing "songs". We want a singular piece of art that sounds like it came from the same place artistically and perhaps even spiritually (not in the religious sense or anything).

[Dolo]

As regards the 'puzzle songwriting', I've written some of my songs that way and I'm happy with the result. The condition is though, the parts that are pieced together should fit, they should make sense as a whole. AB seem to get away with such manner of writing material but there have been biffs (like the transition to the bridge in This Side of Fate). The tempo and the rush seem to be problems here. They know they need to come out with new material every now and then, but they don't have enough time to reconsider, experiment with the material because of tense schedules that Myles and Mark have, so they end up releasing whatever they came up with.

[Jaded Rescue]

As regards the 'puzzle songwriting', I've written some of my songs that way and I'm happy with the result. The condition is though, the parts that are pieced together should fit, they should make sense as a whole. AB seem to get away with such manner of writing material but there have been biffs (like the transition to the bridge in This Side of Fate). The tempo and the rush seem to be problems here. They know they need to come out with new material every now and then, but they don't have enough time to reconsider, experiment with the material because of tense schedules that Myles and Mark have, so they end up releasing whatever they came up with.

This. Remember how during the Blackbird era they talked in interviews a lot about how much time the songs had to marinate? I mean jeez, we heard totally different versions of Come to Life and Buried Alive from Pinkpop before they were even recorded. The puzzle piece thing can work, Mark proved that with Creed (if he isn't lying when he says he's always written that way) but it needs to be done with care and artistic intention, and the parts have to truly be akin to one another. You can't just put any two parts together that are of similar key and tempo.

[Timotheus]

It also needs time. It took them a very long time to write the chorus of Blackbird. Now they'd just throw in something, because of a deadline, and potentially ruin one of their best songs ever. The puzzle strategy only works if they're critical of all parts and the songs still breathe.

[chtimixeur]

The puzzle thing doesn't annoy me as much as it did in the early 2010's. AB III and All I Was had some terrible examples, but the last couple of Tremonti and AB records don't suffer as much from it.
But they definitely should write shorter albums. This way, they could focus on fewer songs and make them better (think about the lack of a proper transition at the very end of Fortress).
Remember, that was the initial plan for The Last Hero. Mark wanted 11 songs if I remember correctly, and we ended up with 14.

[VigilantSteve]

I think mikeyd23's posts over the last couple of pages has pretty much nailed how I feel on these boards most times. I respect everyone's opinions, and even agree with them myself sometimes, but it's frustrating for me when I see people say things along the lines of "AB NEEDS to drop Elvis now" or "AB needs to go back to the ODR style, what they're doing now just isn't working" etc. etc.

I mean, it's cool to not like things that AB does, there are certainly things that I don't like that AB does too, but I just can't personally relate to the mindset of expressing my opinion in a way that comes off as demanding that they should or shouldn't do things in any particular way. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like there's a lot of that here.

*edit* I hope no one takes this as a personal attack or that I'm being overly negative. It's just a mini-gripe that I have at times that's really not all that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

[Ubik]

The puzzle thing doesn't annoy me as much as it did in the early 2010's. AB III and All I Was had some terrible examples, but the last couple of Tremonti and AB records don't suffer as much from it.
But they definitely should write shorter albums. This way, they could focus on fewer songs and make them better (think about the lack of a proper transition at the very end of Fortress).
Remember, that was the initial plan for The Last Hero. Mark wanted 11 songs if I remember correctly, and we ended up with 14.

He thought there'd be 11 on the main album, the plan was always to record 14 I believe. Losing Patience was one that was originally slated to be a b-side.

[anguyen92]

I think mikeyd23's posts over the last couple of pages has pretty much nailed how I feel on these boards most times. I respect everyone's opinions, and even agree with them myself sometimes, but it's frustrating for me when I see people say things along the lines of "AB NEEDS to drop Elvis now" or "AB needs to go back to the ODR style, what they're doing now just isn't working" etc. etc.

I mean, it's cool to not like things that AB does, there are certainly things that I don't like that AB does too, but I just can't personally relate to the mindset of expressing my opinion in a way that comes off as demanding that they should or shouldn't do things in any particular way. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like there's a lot of that here.

*edit* I hope no one takes this as a personal attack or that I'm being overly negative. It's just a mini-gripe that I have at times that's really not all that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

I will concur.