AB VI Studio/Recording Thread

[AB4Lyfe]

We like to blame Elvis, but I don’t think he’s the only one to blame if you don’t like how the album sounds. It’s very possible to have a better sounding album and keep all the layering and ‘producer input’. I think it has to do with everything, from the gear used all the way to mastering. I do think Elvis gets the most out of the guys, I mean he’s directly possible for songs like The Other Side and Wouldn’t You Rather as we now know (say what you want but that WYR riff is tasty), and who knows what else.
I’m not a producer or audio engineer nor do I know anything from how they record their albums, so maybe my opinion is invalid. But I wish the songs - which I like very much - would sound a bit different.

That being said, I like the songs and will like the album probably nonetheless.

Whats fascinating is Elvis did the last Tremonti,Slash and Myles album as far as im aware no issues with the mixing. Why is it an issue for AB thats weird. Just came back from work where in my car i have an AB mixed Cd that plays all their albums. To my ears going from Fortress to TLH sounds the same. So my question, whats the big difference in mixing between those 2 albums ? My ear doesnt notice the difference.

The elephant in the room, and to put is bluntly, is that AB just don't know what sounds good on a studio recording. This is common in rock and metal. Guys who are crazy talented on their instruments but don't know the first thing about making an album sound good (see: Metallica's Death Magnetic for a perfect example).

Didnt Elvis produce Blackbird and Fortress which is revered for its production ?

He did, but I wouldn’t call them revered. It’s more like seeing Star Wars Episode III after the first two. You’ll take what you can get. Speaking for myself, at least.

Don’t shit on Revenge of the Sith. Thems fightin’ words.

[Fish Tacos]

I saw a holorecording of Elvis killing younglings.

[LosingPatience]

We like to blame Elvis, but I don’t think he’s the only one to blame if you don’t like how the album sounds. It’s very possible to have a better sounding album and keep all the layering and ‘producer input’. I think it has to do with everything, from the gear used all the way to mastering. I do think Elvis gets the most out of the guys, I mean he’s directly possible for songs like The Other Side and Wouldn’t You Rather as we now know (say what you want but that WYR riff is tasty), and who knows what else.
I’m not a producer or audio engineer nor do I know anything from how they record their albums, so maybe my opinion is invalid. But I wish the songs - which I like very much - would sound a bit different.

That being said, I like the songs and will like the album probably nonetheless.

Whats fascinating is Elvis did the last Tremonti,Slash and Myles album as far as im aware no issues with the mixing. Why is it an issue for AB thats weird. Just came back from work where in my car i have an AB mixed Cd that plays all their albums. To my ears going from Fortress to TLH sounds the same. So my question, whats the big difference in mixing between those 2 albums ? My ear doesnt notice the difference.

The elephant in the room, and to put is bluntly, is that AB just don't know what sounds good on a studio recording. This is common in rock and metal. Guys who are crazy talented on their instruments but don't know the first thing about making an album sound good (see: Metallica's Death Magnetic for a perfect example).

Didnt Elvis produce Blackbird and Fortress which is revered for its production ?

He did, but I wouldn’t call them revered. It’s more like seeing Star Wars Episode III after the first two. You’ll take what you can get. Speaking for myself, at least.

Ok whats the issue with mixing on Blackbird ? Certainly have not heard any complaints from it

[MuffinMcFluffin]

God, if you hear any song of Fortress and then you hear any of the three songs of WTS, you can't imagine how it's possible that the same people produced/mixed those two albums because the difference is huge. It really bothers me.

Whats the difference, seriously im not hearing it

This is hard to answer since some of us already have before, like my post here and the post above mine who actually quoted you.

Now this isn't a knock and I'm not playing an assumption or anything, but the more inferior the audio quality is, the less you'll be able to distinguish differences. But honestly, any basic car audio speakers will do... just a phone or laptop might not have anything jump out.

They clearly have a different sound from ODR/BB to AB III, and I'd say they improved in Fortress to the point there's nothing really to gripe about but you can tell they've lost the Myles showcase that the first two albums had, and then TLH literally just decided to change everything. Mix, arrangements, layers, complexity... there just might not be any going back.

I'll reserve judgment on this album because I haven't heard the songs (I have heard WYR twice but improperly through laptop speakers), though based on what everyone else is saying, all hope is gone.

And if you're still not sure and need some immediacy, if you have the deluxe TLH album with Breathe on it, go ahead and listen to the whole album from Show Me A Leader to Last of Our Kind/Symphony of Agony, then go ahead and let Breathe play. It is from their ODR days, but uhh... nothing is the same, nothing at all. If you're just talking about from Fortress, it'll be less obvious, but it's there. Everything is harsh sounding in TLH, even with the clean guitars picking on songs like My Champion and You Will Be Remembered, and in Myles' voice in general.

Not sure Breathe is a great example since that was from ODR era and that album sounds miles different than Fortress even, so obviously it aint going to sound similar to TLH

Yes, but you see, Breathe is from their ODR days, and at those times nothing at all is the same. They clearly have a different sound from ODR/BB to any of their other albums.

This is really fun and all, but at any point that you'd like to stop repeating what the other person says, just let me know and I'll refrain. Also let me know when you're ready to talk about anything else I've mentioned in my past two posts on this topic.

[Jaded Rescue]

We like to blame Elvis, but I don’t think he’s the only one to blame if you don’t like how the album sounds. It’s very possible to have a better sounding album and keep all the layering and ‘producer input’. I think it has to do with everything, from the gear used all the way to mastering. I do think Elvis gets the most out of the guys, I mean he’s directly possible for songs like The Other Side and Wouldn’t You Rather as we now know (say what you want but that WYR riff is tasty), and who knows what else.
I’m not a producer or audio engineer nor do I know anything from how they record their albums, so maybe my opinion is invalid. But I wish the songs - which I like very much - would sound a bit different.

That being said, I like the songs and will like the album probably nonetheless.

Whats fascinating is Elvis did the last Tremonti,Slash and Myles album as far as im aware no issues with the mixing. Why is it an issue for AB thats weird. Just came back from work where in my car i have an AB mixed Cd that plays all their albums. To my ears going from Fortress to TLH sounds the same. So my question, whats the big difference in mixing between those 2 albums ? My ear doesnt notice the difference.

The elephant in the room, and to put is bluntly, is that AB just don't know what sounds good on a studio recording. This is common in rock and metal. Guys who are crazy talented on their instruments but don't know the first thing about making an album sound good (see: Metallica's Death Magnetic for a perfect example).

Didnt Elvis produce Blackbird and Fortress which is revered for its production ?

He did, but I wouldn’t call them revered. It’s more like seeing Star Wars Episode III after the first two. You’ll take what you can get. Speaking for myself, at least.

Don’t shit on Revenge of the Sith. Thems fightin’ words.

Don't get me wrong, Revenge of the Sith holds a special place in my heart. But as much as I love it, it's not up there as one of the greatest films ever made. And there's still a lot in it that I would have done differently if I were Lucas.

That said, I didn't expect someone to defend ROTS. A surprise, to be sure. But a welcome one!

[Jaded Rescue]

We like to blame Elvis, but I don’t think he’s the only one to blame if you don’t like how the album sounds. It’s very possible to have a better sounding album and keep all the layering and ‘producer input’. I think it has to do with everything, from the gear used all the way to mastering. I do think Elvis gets the most out of the guys, I mean he’s directly possible for songs like The Other Side and Wouldn’t You Rather as we now know (say what you want but that WYR riff is tasty), and who knows what else.
I’m not a producer or audio engineer nor do I know anything from how they record their albums, so maybe my opinion is invalid. But I wish the songs - which I like very much - would sound a bit different.

That being said, I like the songs and will like the album probably nonetheless.

Whats fascinating is Elvis did the last Tremonti,Slash and Myles album as far as im aware no issues with the mixing. Why is it an issue for AB thats weird. Just came back from work where in my car i have an AB mixed Cd that plays all their albums. To my ears going from Fortress to TLH sounds the same. So my question, whats the big difference in mixing between those 2 albums ? My ear doesnt notice the difference.

The elephant in the room, and to put is bluntly, is that AB just don't know what sounds good on a studio recording. This is common in rock and metal. Guys who are crazy talented on their instruments but don't know the first thing about making an album sound good (see: Metallica's Death Magnetic for a perfect example).

Didnt Elvis produce Blackbird and Fortress which is revered for its production ?

He did, but I wouldn’t call them revered. It’s more like seeing Star Wars Episode III after the first two. You’ll take what you can get. Speaking for myself, at least.

Ok whats the issue with mixing on Blackbird ? Certainly have not heard any complaints from it

Blackbird isn't as egregious with the heavy compression as The Last Hero, but it's still there. It has the same problem that most modern rock from that era till now does, which is that you can barely make out the bass guitar (which is a damn shame considering how talented Brian is). It's also the genesis of the overdone effects and echoes on Myles' voice. And, like a lot of modern rock, it just sounds too cold and calculated. That last one might be a bit subjective, but I don't personally understand modern rock bands' obsession with cutting all the mids out of a mix, or even their guitars. There's nothing wrong with some warmth in the sound.

Listen, I love Blackbird. That album had such a massive effect on me as a teenager beginning to play the guitar and learning to sing. But that doesn't mean it's above criticism - I don't think any work of art should be. It doesn't mean it's bad, but there's always room for improvement. It's just... when people wonder why rock is dying on the commercial level, this is the kind of stuff I point to. The production is too often ham-fisted and doesn't feel genuine, and stylistically the genre has become so stale. There comes a point where people want something different, and that's why Nirvana blew up after a decade of over-produced pop on the radio. It's the same reason why Billie Eilish is blowing up right now (like her or hate her), because people feel they haven't heard something like that before. And lazily throwing some synths onto a rock song on top of production that's already stuffed to the brim isn't going to make you stand out - that's what's frustrating me about this new material from AB. When I first saw Spinal Tap I thought the "These amps go to 11" scene was hilarious, and it still is, but now it feels like what was once my favorite band is literally living that scene out.

[Kreuger]

Guys. Stop quoting 12 posts at a time.

[AB4Lyfe]

Guys. Stop quoting 12 posts at a time.

I will when you stop with that ‘tude...

[poshisjarker]

Yeah, Jaded Rescue...i'm right there with you. And right off the bat with Fortress (an album i love and i am largely fine with the production on) on COA, you can hear how the guitar riffs and drum cymbals sound kinda distant and muffled, plus all the vocal effects. You can see that direction starting from Blackbird, another album I adore. But man, the difference between blaring Blackbird in the car versus this new AB stuff is crazy. You can turn Ties That Bind way up without compromising the sound. What I wouldn't give tho for AB's music to be produced like Pearl Jam-Vs or something like that. From the very beginning of Go, that album hits you so hard and sounds amazing. You can hear absolutely everything and it is so raw. I'm not even the biggest PJ fan but gosh Brendan O'Brien KILLED it on that album. King's X Dogman (can't list that one enough), Soundgarden-Superunknown, anything Led Zeppelin (if they're the model, why are we trying to get as far away from their sound as possible?). Rock music is always best off sounding raw imo. Listened to a lot of early Creed the other day and i enjoy it so much more than the recent AB stuff just cause i love the production on MOP and HC.

[poshisjarker]

oh gosh i totally forgot how much i adore the bridge riff in Are You Ready...sorry, don't want to get this too far off topic but had to mention this. man some of those old little clean guitar sections mark did were money

[LosingPatience]

Yeah, Jaded Rescue...i'm right there with you. And right off the bat with Fortress (an album i love and i am largely fine with the production on) on COA, you can hear how the guitar riffs and drum cymbals sound kinda distant and muffled, plus all the vocal effects. You can see that direction starting from Blackbird, another album I adore. But man, the difference between blaring Blackbird in the car versus this new AB stuff is crazy. You can turn Ties That Bind way up without compromising the sound. What I wouldn't give tho for AB's music to be produced like Pearl Jam-Vs or something like that. From the very beginning of Go, that album hits you so hard and sounds amazing. You can hear absolutely everything and it is so raw. I'm not even the biggest PJ fan but gosh Brendan O'Brien KILLED it on that album. King's X Dogman (can't list that one enough), Soundgarden-Superunknown, anything Led Zeppelin (if they're the model, why are we trying to get as far away from their sound as possible?). Rock music is always best off sounding raw imo. Listened to a lot of early Creed the other day and i enjoy it so much more than the recent AB stuff just cause i love the production on MOP and HC.

If we are talking rock production nothing has beaten Van Halen 1 or 2 for me thats as good as it get Ted Templeton did that i believe. This is the first time ive heard a complaint about the production of Blackbird though. Although this place leans more on the side of a troll group than a fandom. Not saying you have to praise everything but man is it possible for any positivity here i mean gee whiz. Creed is going to sound better because 1 their is only 1 guitarist to mix, and 2 their song structures are basic. I mean if you stuff that up you should retire

[anguyen92]

I'm trying to be overly positive, yet realistically critical when it comes to stuff like layering guitars and vocals and the state of Myles' voice while still loving everything AB churns out for the most part. You can't assume that there's no positivity here.

I'm pumped for the Victorious Sky tour and I'm not going to a show and a lot of people do not like the direction Skillet has gone in their music, yet I'm still pumped to see a tour where AB co-headlines with a solid band like Skillet rather than be an opening band for a bigger band. We can gripe about AB's production issues, but they delivered a quality album in The Last Hero than Unleashed and the gap in quality was way wider to me comparing those two albums than Fortress and Rise (my #1 and #2 album of 2013).

[scarecrow]

I'm trying to be overly positive, yet realistically critical when it comes to stuff like layering guitars and vocals and the state of Myles' voice while still loving everything AB churns out for the most part. You can't assume that there's no positivity here.

I'm pumped for the Victorious Sky tour and I'm not going to a show and a lot of people do not like the direction Skillet has gone in their music, yet I'm still pumped to see a tour where AB co-headlines with a solid band like Skillet rather than be an opening band for a bigger band. We can gripe about AB's production issues, but they delivered a quality album in The Last Hero than Unleashed and the gap in quality was way wider to me comparing those two albums than Fortress and Rise (my #1 and #2 album of 2013).

Wait, do we know who's going to play first? Because I have no interest in Skillet and it would be cool if AB was on first and then I could leave.

[anguyen92]

No clue yet. I'm sure we will hear more about it nearing the week before the tour begins.

[MuffinMcFluffin]

Creed is going to sound better because 1 their is only 1 guitarist to mix, and 2 their song structures are basic. I mean if you stuff that up you should retire

Breaking Benjamin has used three guitarists and a bassist in their last two albums, and everything sounds great on them. They sacrificed their mids for dynamics, but everything is clear and reproducible.

[poshisjarker]

Pearl Jam and Soundgarden have two guitarists. Both bands do plenty of layering with guitar parts, particularly Soundgarden. Outside example but Snarky Puppy has a billion different instruments and extremely complex music, yet perhaps the best production (you can isolate every little thing recorded) i've ever heard

[Jaded Rescue]

Creed is going to sound better because 1 their is only 1 guitarist to mix, and 2 their song structures are basic. I mean if you stuff that up you should retire

Breaking Benjamin has used three guitarists and a bassist in their last two albums, and everything sounds great on them. They sacrificed their mids for dynamics, but everything is clear and reproducible.

Agreed, and there are a ton of other examples like this. Listen to any prog rock that's well-produced and you'll hear 7 or 8 different instruments just fine. Hell, I can listen to a 90-piece orchestra and pick stuff out if it's done well. It's not a problem with the number of instruments or complexity of songwriting. We may never know if it's Elvis or AB themselves influencing this bad mixing, but the fact remains that it's just not dynamic and doesn't offer space for all of the instruments to shine.

As far as the discussion about positivity goes, I feel a lot of positive feelings about AB and the music they can create. I've shared those feelings to incredible ends over the last 15 years of loving this band. Some people in college only knew me tangentially as, "that guy that really loves Alter Bridge". But there comes a time for constructive criticism. It's not hate. I just want this band to sound better so that more people want to hear them. It's tough to turn people on to a band that sounds so harsh to the ear on studio recordings. Not everyone is a metal head that can handle that, and if AB ever wants a bigger audience, they need to adjust.

[Jaded Rescue]

Listened to a lot of early Creed the other day and i enjoy it so much more than the recent AB stuff just cause i love the production on MOP and HC.

I could go on and on and on about this, but in short, hell yeah. MOP and HC both have that dynamic kick that all the later AB stuff lacks.

I don't know if Tobias Forge actually produces all of Ghost's work himself or someone else works with him, but I'd love to hear whoever worked on Meliora and Prequelle do an AB album.

[chtimixeur]

Blackbird isn't as egregious with the heavy compression as The Last Hero, but it's still there. It has the same problem that most modern rock from that era till now does, which is that you can barely make out the bass guitar (which is a damn shame considering how talented Brian is). It's also the genesis of the overdone effects and echoes on Myles' voice. And, like a lot of modern rock, it just sounds too cold and calculated. That last one might be a bit subjective, but I don't personally understand modern rock bands' obsession with cutting all the mids out of a mix, or even their guitars. There's nothing wrong with some warmth in the sound.

Listen, I love Blackbird. That album had such a massive effect on me as a teenager beginning to play the guitar and learning to sing. But that doesn't mean it's above criticism - I don't think any work of art should be. It doesn't mean it's bad, but there's always room for improvement. It's just... when people wonder why rock is dying on the commercial level, this is the kind of stuff I point to. The production is too often ham-fisted and doesn't feel genuine, and stylistically the genre has become so stale. There comes a point where people want something different, and that's why Nirvana blew up after a decade of over-produced pop on the radio. It's the same reason why Billie Eilish is blowing up right now (like her or hate her), because people feel they haven't heard something like that before. And lazily throwing some synths onto a rock song on top of production that's already stuffed to the brim isn't going to make you stand out - that's what's frustrating me about this new material from AB. When I first saw Spinal Tap I thought the "These amps go to 11" scene was hilarious, and it still is, but now it feels like what was once my favorite band is literally living that scene out.

Great post, one again.
Albums from the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's still sound awesome to this day.
20 years from now, people will listen to albums from the 2000's and 2010's and wonder what was wrong with everyone's ears.

Brendan O'Brien KILLED it on that album.

That guy has been a part of the problem for at least 20 years. As as much as I love Korn's Issues, the guitars sound ridiculously bad.
He also sucked the life out of AC/DC on Black Ice.

But there comes a time for constructive criticism. It's not hate. I just want this band to sound better so that more people want to hear them. It's tough to turn people on to a band that sounds so harsh to the ear on studio recordings. Not everyone is a metal head that can handle that, and if AB ever wants a bigger audience, they need to adjust.

Blackbird, ABIII, Fortress, The Last Hero and Walk the Sky could all sound awesome... one day.
I assume the band still has the individual stems for each instrument on various hard drives, and they could hire a talented guy to remix those albums from the start. I'm sure every AB fan who currently says everything is fine and dandy would be stunned by the difference. We all know the actual music is great under that compression and poor mix nonsense, but we can't properly hear it yet.

[poshisjarker]

Oh shoot yea knew that name rung a bell...it's really bizarre though cause Vs is very raw