'With Arms Wide Open: A Retrospective' (Nov. 20th)

[riemslag1]

If you like Creed over the other bands/projects I really have no problem with that. I also like that band. I respect your opinion driven by need for Creed. However suggesting that Creed offers more quality than the other bands/projects must be a joke. Nowhere near the quality of AB or even Tremonti ! Ok, just a matter of personal taste.........

[Ubik]

Mark doesn't really need an excuse not to do Creed, I'd imagine he needs a very good reason to do it. Stapp is not a reliable band member.

That said, I wouldn't exactly blame him if he did given the state of Alter Bridge right now.

[Timotheus]

I understand what you're saying, but integrity doesn't pay the bills.
Plus, why would you say Tremonti is a project that has more integrity than Creed ? I find the music way more commercial sounding and predictable in Tremonti, as far as I'm concerned (I'm not hating Cauterize by the way, I though it was actually decent, but I expect more from Mark musically).
Also, ask Brian, Stapp and Flip if they want to give Creed another chance... Mark is the only one who's always finding an excuse to not do it.

I'm not saying the Tremonti project has more integrity than Creed. Creed's got nothing to do with it. You're saying he should stop doing the project because it has no chance of getting big. That's what my post was directed at.

[chtimixeur]

@riemslag1 : to each his own, I guess. For me, 1997-2001 Creed was no joke whatsoever. I think Mark was more inspired and didn't rely as much on a formula as he does nowadays. Stapp was on fire vocally, Mark's clean tone was beautiful, and his heavy one was just badass. Plus, you could hear Brian, and his bass licks were a great counterpart to the clean guitar melodies. Creed was unique, and the fact that they became insaly popular with a couple of somewhat cheesy tunes shouldn't put a shadow on the rest of their catalogue. On the other hand, Full Circle is a joke to me, and if that's the best Mark can do when he's in Creed, then I'd rather he put the band to rest once and for all. Do it right, or move on.

@Ubik : Stapp is not reliable, mainly because he suffers from trust issues. He's been abandoned by everyone in his life again and again. I'm not saying he's a saint, but having Creed being taken away from him twice in 10 years must have played a huge role in his multiple breakdowns and relapses. The guy needs stability in his personal life (thank God he has Jaclin) as well as in his professionnal life. And guess what ? Creed's schedules are as unpredictable as it gets, mainly because Alter Bridge is the n°1 priority (I'm putting myself in his perspective here - I actually like and used to love AB). No wonder he hates that band so much, to the point he can barely pronounce its name...

Also, if we're speaking about reliability, let's not all forget Mark was the one who pulled the plug on Creed V in july 2012, in order to write and record All I Was. 2012 was supposed to be a Creed year, and halfway through it, Mark seemed to suddenly lose interest. I wouldn't go as far as saying Mark doesn't deserve to be in Creed, but Stapp was definitely onto something when he told him that harsh sentence a few months later.

@Timotheus : then, what's the point of this solo project ? It doesn't pay the bills, and the music is just a slight variation of Alter Bridge. IMO, when you are lucky enough to have a band as important as Creed, you shouldn't leave it and put it on the side for a vanity project. I understand he's hit the big 4-0, and fronting a band makes him feel younger and all. But come on now, we're talking about Creed, quite probably the biggest rock band of the last 20 years.

[JaredWard]

I find the music way more commercial sounding and predictable in Tremonti

I've never viewed or heard Tremonti's music as commercial. haha Of course there are stand out tracks like "Sympathy" & "The Things I've Seen" that could be universally loved on radio but his stuff is far from what Creed was and what the Rock genre calls for to be successful. That's why I respect Mark's integrity and his passion to do what he wants with his music.

[Ubik]

chtimixeur - Wasn't the hiatus in 2012 related to Stapp's book? I definitely remember some pointed comments from Mark surrounding Stapp "promoting his book" at the time. And I haven't read it, but wasn't there also some stuff in there that wasn't exactly conducive to maintaining a good relationship?

You're right I think about the reasons for Stapp's unreliability, and I genuinely feel bad for the guy and wish him all the best. But I don't think Mark share's any blame for those issues, or should feel like he has to keep Creed going in order for Stapp to stay healthy. The problem as I see it is that Stapp needs Mark to make music, but Mark doesn't need Stapp.

The point of Tremonti (the band) is an interesting one, though. I agree with Timo that "being big" isn't what Mark's really going for with it, and it started out mainly because he wanted to just let that side of his writing have a dedicated outlet when it doesn't quite fit with Alter Bridge. Your classic side project. But given Alter Bridge right now basically has side project status as well in terms of how often it gets together, you question whether Tremonti is enough for Mark in the meantime, since it's basically his main band until Myles has a few spare moments. I genuinely don't know how things are going to play out if I'm honest.

Apologies for the slight detour from the thread there!

[JaredWard]

The hiatus was due to Scott always fighting with Mark on their last tour & making it miserable for him. I can't remember Mark's quotes but Stapp was upset that Mark was doing his solo stuff & a new AB album/tour. Before that there were disagreements on who would produce Creed V or just the new song they were planning to release "More Than This".. Scott wanted Kurzweg & Mark wanted Elvis. It was downhill from there.

[cheesedip1]

Indeed.
Mark's solo band is bombing in the USA. Sure, there is still Europe, but Tremonti is no AB, and Mark is fooling himself if he's thinking he's going to reach the same amount of success over there. I don't see how he's going to break even financially with that project.

I've said it since 2012, but for me, Mark is wasting his best years for a project that 0 chance of ever getting big. He's no frontman, he's not suited for that job (sorry, I'm just telling it like it is), and the songwriting is way too close to Alter Bridge's.

1. Mark said a lot of his US Tours were breakeven tours. Like, the goal wasn't to make money it was just to break even. Something like that.

2. Doesn't it take time to build up one's fanbase? I mean, Tremonti's not very popular now, but perhaps with time? Well, then again, if AB isn't super big in the US, what chance does Tremonti have I wonder?

3. This begs the question, does a band need a great frontman to be successful? Thoughts? I feel like it wouldn't hurt, to have a decent frontman.

[riemslag1]

Why all this talks about popularity and money ? What if Mark does not really need this to bring in a lot of money and just wants to have fun performing his great passion playing heavier rock music ? No Creed is no joke, read my post again. It's just such a long way behind Mark's other projects and bands quality wise.

[chtimixeur]

I'm not sure the 2012 hiatus has a lot to do with Stapp's book. I highly doubt Mark read it, and aside from a couple sentences about Creed being pushed on the side once again, Stapp didn't bash Mark whatsoever.

@Jared : the choruses are extremely commercial sounding in Tremonti. Trivium have the same issue, and their latest album is not being well received at all by its fans. They're even being called sellouts. If Mark is that serious about metal, he should drop the 4 minute format and challenge himself with 6-7 minute long songs full of intricate instrumental parts. Now, THAT would be a proof of his integrity and his love for 80's metal !

@riemslag1 : whether we like or not, this is a business, and if Tremonti becomes Mark's main band, it will have to make some money. The guy has a family, a big house, and the 2 millions he got from the Windup lawsuit won't last forever. No one in his right mind will keep on barely breaking even over a long period of time. That's why so many promising bands end up breaking up after just couple of years.
Also, quality wise, I think Tremonti is miles behind AB or Creed. For me, this band still hasn't found its own identity musically and sonically. But that's just my opinion.

@cheesedip1 : interesting debate. I think a band needs a great frontman to become big or huge. Look at Godsmack. They're not the most original band out there. But man does Sully Erna bring it on on stage every night ! Same for Slipknot. The way you project yourself on stage and handle a crowd is as least as important as the way you sing. Commanding a crowd is not as easy as it seems : you'll need charisma and attitude, as well as the X factor. Stapp has had it from day one, and I'm convinced it played a big part in their success.

@Ubik : you're spot on when you're saying "Stapp needs Mark to make music, but Mark doesn't need Stapp".

[riemslag1]

Whether this band should bring Mark making money or not is up to him, not up to us. I see a developing no-nonsense frontman who is having fun with this band. Tremonti is doiing a lot better over here in Europe (like AB) than in the states. Seen them twice now and compared to first time the crowd more than doubled in Amsterdam the second gig. Definitely growing ! At this side of the Atlantic all post-Creed are doiing better than in their home country. No idea why. A lot over here, off course not everybody, just don't understand this adoration for an average band like Creed in the States. Musically the guys are doiing so much better now. Everybody his own opinion, no problem to respect that, but I honestly think their music developed for the better since Creed. Thank god they broke up, otherwise we would not have been so privileged to enjoy AB and Tremonti. Let's face it, when the real friendship and chemistry between the two main performers of Creed just is not there anymore, than what's the use to restart the band again. Just for the money without the real passion just won't bring us great music anymore.

[Them Bones]

Creed was where Tremonti was original. He felt pressure to impress more complicated guitarists of his time. Plus the meaningless hate the band were getting early on added Tremonti to doubt what he had with Creed. Nobody is saying that Tremonti has not become a technically better guitar player. Sadly, complexity is not the only measure of good music, his choice of notes in Creed and melody writing were profound. Yes I enjoy a lot of his music, but lately, it is much more formulaic than he has been accused for. Creed's music was loaded with groove and for me much more heavy than AB. Again, I dont think noisy means heavy, but its the weight of the matter and that BASS, that has never been heard in AB. I don't want anyone to think I am trying to argue a point, I think people need to listen to songs like young grow old or torn and that was heavy. Better or worse is always gonna be subjective, but tainting everything Tremonti had with Creed just cuz stapp had his issues is kinda unfortunate. Creed were really good, it is a shame whatever has happened to the band.

[Dolo]

I think Mark's creativity really went wrong sometime around Blackbird. From then on you can still find some gems but definitely you hear him a lot sticking to his chugga-chugga metal riffs, pretty much pointless legato passages all over the neck and what not. I totally see Them Bones' point of Creed's groove, Human Clay was when the guys really had the great sense of it and the fact that Mark was the sole guitar player also played a huge role. It would be pretty interesting to see what would have happened had they not disbanded and carried on but then otherwise we would have no AB and gems like Blackbird, The End is Here, Brand New Start etc. There is really no point in such speculations but maybe that was the way it had to be. Such a pity that Mark's talent is in a way obscure since he has never had any huge moments in his career aside from the last years of 97-02 Creed. As long as he's happy with this, it is fine.

[Finaldecision]

Creed was basically a victim of their own success. They were too successful to be loved.
Yet well-known songs like With Arms Wide Open weren't really representative for the rest of their respective album. Human Clay was a true masterpiece. Songs like Say I or Faceless Man had everything: They were heavy, moody, but still catchy and had originality.

Other than that Stapp's voice reminded some people too much of Eddie Vedder's voice. So they called Creed a Pearl Jam rip-off (which wasn't really fair in my opinion. I think that Creed indeed leaned on that Grunge sound, but they managed to elaborate their own distinct style within that).

Another major point of criticism was Creed's tendency to touch religious themes. But I guess most of that came from people who were too narrow-minded for this kind of lyrics. Many of the critics didn't even get the point of what these songs were about. They just seemed to hate them for having Christian undertones.
To say it in the words of Stapp himself: "Spiritual insinuations seem to shock our nation."

[cheesedip1]

the choruses are extremely commercial sounding in Tremonti. Trivium have the same issue, and their latest album is not being well received at all by its fans. They're even being called sellouts. If Mark is that serious about metal, he should drop the 4 minute format and challenge himself with 6-7 minute long songs full of intricate instrumental parts. Now, THAT would be a proof of his integrity and his love for 80's metal !

Would it appeal to more people tho? Perhaps it would be less 'commerical', but would it bring more people to shows? Not saying that it matters, just a thought....

man does Sully Erna bring it on on stage every night ! Same for Slipknot.

True. I also feel like one of the reasons Slipknot has a great live sound is because there are so many members. Having two sets of drums (or whatever they are) makes the sound sound a lot more intense.

I think Mark's creativity really went wrong sometime around Blackbird. From then on you can still find some gems but definitely you hear him a lot sticking to his chugga-chugga metal riffs, pretty much pointless legato passages all over the neck and what not.

I kind of agree but at the same time I don't. With that being said, this would explain why Open your Eyes and Broken Wings are my favorite two AB songs (in general).

[chtimixeur]

Nice debate we're having here.
I see a lot of good points in the post of Them Bones, Dolo and Final Decision. Kudos to you guys

I see a developing no-nonsense frontman

Well, unless I'm mistaken, Mark has been cursing on stage only because he thinks it's what a cool frontman does. I call that nonsense, and believe me, I'm not the guy of kind who's offended by foul language... If that's the only thing he's gonna do to improve his stage presence, well, that's pretty sad.

A lot over here, off course not everybody, just don't understand this adoration for an average band like Creed in the States.

Well, I don't understand the praise for a run-of-the-mill band like Tremonti in Europe.
Seriously, though... Don't people realize this band has 0 originality and that it's just Alter Bridge with a couple metal riffs ?

Let's face it, when the real friendship and chemistry between the two main performers of Creed just is not there anymore, than what's the use to restart the band again. Just for the money without the real passion just won't bring us great music anymore.

This, I can agree with

[vChris]

So admittedly I didn't read every post here. But it kind of bugs me that (no matter what the topic of discussion is - you can see the same discussion in the 'is metal dying?' thread) people just say "Back then everything was better" and that's it.
Music for me is about emotion. It is about certain stages in your life and in the band's life. I will always be emotionally attached to certain songs not necessarily because it is the best but because I have a connection to it whether it is good times or bad times or just a memoralbe day or....
At the same time that means that style and lyrics evolve with changing experiences and emotions. I am wondering if people here really miss the old Creed music and Mark's "old" style or just the old times in general.
Especially if I read why Mark continues with a 'unsuccessful' band like Tremonti when he could be so much more successful with Creed, while at the same time saying he only makes commercial music nowadays.
I mean, it is absolutely okay to prefer the old stuff. But to say he "lost creativity" because he doesn't produce your own preferred music style anymore?
Maybe I misunderstood something because English is obviously not my first language, but yeah...

[riemslag1]

Indeed it's a pleasure to discuss differences in opinion this way.
I'm afraid we will not be able to persuade each other of our opinions. That's OK since they are driven my taste for certain styles of music. By the way, I'm not a Creed-hater at all, I own all their CD's and singles and enjoy listening to them once in a while. Thank you for complimenting and upgrading Tremonti by calling them AB with metal riffs ! By far the nicest thing you said about this band. I will be seeing them live next december in Tilburg for the third time, looking forward to that ! I will bring my two daughters to that gig (12 and 11 years), trying to contribute to metal NOT dying !

[vChris]

I will bring my two daughters to that gig (12 and 11 years), trying to contribute to metal NOT dying !

I was 11 when my brother introduced me to Papa Roach's Last Resort and I turned my back on girly pop bands, so it's a good age

[Dolo]

But to say he "lost creativity" because he doesn't produce your own preferred music style anymore?

If you are referring to my words, you might have misunderstood them. Of course it is based on one's taste and opinion, but there is a huge different between One Day Remains and say, Blackbird and Full Circle. FC sounds nothing like 'classic' Creed with Mark's drastically down-tuned downpicking metal chuggy riffs. I didn't say Mark lost his creativity but it definitely changed its direction. It looks as if 97-02 Creed was more of a 'band thing' based on the whole band jamming ideas out and working on keeping the groove whereas AB is just Mark and Myles writing stuff at home and bringing that over to the rest of the guys, and since Mark is generally a guitar player you can really hear the bass losing its place as Them Bones mentioned it.