DUST - The Second Part

[poshisjarker]

King's X-Dogman

You know, any time someone says they wish so and so would produce an album instead of Elivs, I look up their suggestion. It's usually a metal producer of some sort and the albums I look up sound washed out in comparison or are just so thrashy any difference is completely garbled.

This is the first suggestion I've looked up where I was like yeah I can totally see what you mean. Some of the things on that album didn't impress me at all like the grunge tones in Human Behavior but there are a lot of really great balances and clear sounds that still have a lot of oomph to them that make me agree with you.

Exactly! Yeah sweet i'm glad to hear that...that's one of my favorite albums. That's always an example i use to try to show where i'm coming from. I just love the guitar tones on that record

[poshisjarker]

Oh and i think i came across a little more aggressive than i intended in my mile long previous post but eh whatevs lol...if you're not passionate about your music then what's the point right? But anyway

[Take The Sun]

In my opinion, two albums that have awesome production (that i wish ALL heavy rock records sounded like) are King's X-Dogman and Pearl Jam-Vs...however I will say that I am a HUGE fan of the the three new Dust songs. All are easily in my Tremonti top ten and they all sound fine to my ears. Maybe just maybe i wish the chorus guitars in these songs sounded more crisp. But i absolutely love all these songs and it doesn't matter to me much...unlike the song Cauterize, for example (as above mentioned). That is a great song that I will forever think wtf Elvis ya kinda held this tune back. I really believe the whole bridge/last chorus in that song was objectively just messy sounding lol. But again it's ok. Tremonti ain't the only modern rock band that i think has some production issues. And i'll also say...for the life of me, I don't get these incessant complaints about song structure lol. I see nothing wrong with the classic song structure anyway. It works so well and Mark is incredible at writing really cool sections and somehow coming up with great songs that are almost always very cohesive sounding. If ya can't appreciate this band due to the fact that they're not trying to be Dream Theater, then i pity ya. But i play music and listen to everything so i understand what you mean of course. I just think it's a bit petty. I mean there are a TON of little unique subtleties and approaches that Mark has made his own...that add so much to songs that you simply don't hear with most rock artists. He is as uniquely talented as they come and i think it's fairly obvious in his songwriting if you really listen. Let's not ignore the fact that these three new songs could not possibly be more unlike each other musically lol. No Tremonti has never written Dust before. Never written MLM before. And he definitely hasn't written anything remotely like Betray Me before. These songs are very fresh

Thank you. I looked at the complaining posts earlier. I held back from sayinh anything and moved on. But I completely agree with you. People complain and complain about the song structure. But the minute they would dare to try something different, the same people would complain that there were too many unnecessary parts and the songs became too long or too boring blah blah. I'm so sick of these people who think their opinion is king when it comes to song structures. Let's remember here. Mark makes this music for himself. He doesn't have to write anything to please you. The fans that love it are a bonus. If you don't like it... you don't need to come in this thread and slap directly in the face those of us who enjoy it. The production on these 3 songs sounds WAY clearer and cleaner than on Cauterize, almost like they turned everything down from 11 to 9.5 before the release of Dust. If you were expecting a totally different production, you're a fool. They were recorded together and produced together. And like Posh pointed out, there has never been ANYTHING even remotely close to My Last Mistake or Betray Me in his catalogue before. Those riffs elevate the songs so much. At least he isn't strumming 4 power chords the entire song. Maybe that's the only thing that would make the complainers happy. Do we need to get Mark onstage with an acoustic, a mic and nothing else? Singer songwriter Mark Tremonti.

Point is, if you don't like it, feel free to move on, and patiently wait for ABV. No one forced you to buy or even check out these tracks (especially if you had low expectations going in)... sorry you go after music you don't even care about.


And Posh, sometimes aggression is the only way to make your point. I'm sure my post was more aggressive. Oh well.

[Dolo]

Lol dudes, I'm pretty aware of the fact that Mark writes songs that he wants to write and it is a perk of being a musician to do whatever you want to satisfy yourself predominantly, but here, on this board, we are free to express our views, and by saying that I'm not really crazy about new tracks, I'm not trying to make Mark create super original and groundbreaking compositions. i just think that it would be nice to step out of the ordinary and take some risks with songwriting (Providence and Fortress are good examples of it). And if you think that longer songs have unnecessary parts and are boing, well, you haven't listened to a lot of music in your life.

[chtimixeur]

Love the riffs, vocals are impressive. He's got a ton of charisma/attitude on those verses. Bored as ever by his song writing - he's just putting new parts in the same stale mold - every. single. time. Its like he doesn't even write "new" songs, he just writes "more" songs.

+1
Mark is an excellent riff writer, but he's become a very average songwriter since he's started working with Elvis. It's like he's not challenging himself anymore and is just putting interchangeable parts in the same spots every single time. Even the so-called epics have the same blueprint as Blackbird...
The end result always remains entertaining because the individual parts are good, but he could do so much more with his talent.

[riemslag1]

-1
Non sense.
Strange remarks for someone who is such a fan of those boring boring boring all-sound-the-same Creed tunes. Songwriting , production and (live) performance so very much better evolved in AB and Tremonti. Forget about the poppy-past. Mark developed more towards real rock and metal. Love every output if these bands so much !

[psycosquirrel789]

And like Posh pointed out, there has never been ANYTHING even remotely close to My Last Mistake or Betray Me in his catalogue before.

[Timotheus]

I've never understood the complaints about the audio quality. It sounds just the same as any other song ever mixed and mastered by any other band. They all sound the same.

Oh wow...

Point is, if you don't like it, feel free to move on, and patiently wait for ABV. No one forced you to buy or even check out these tracks (especially if you had low expectations going in)... sorry you go after music you don't even care about.


And Posh, sometimes aggression is the only way to make your point. I'm sure my post was more aggressive. Oh well.

This is an Alter Bridge forum. There are going to be people on here that don't like Tremonti as much as you do, but still check out his music because it's one of their favorite guitarists. There's nothing wrong with sharing a negative opinion.

Its like he doesn't even write "new" songs, he just writes "more" songs.

That's an awfully correct statement.

[chtimixeur]

Songwriting , production and (live) performance so very much better evolved in AB and Tremonti.

I can understand it if you like AB or Tremonti better.
But how can anyone say the production is better on AB and Tremonti records ?
Human Clay's production slays anything those 2 bands ever released. By a huge margin.
Whether it's the guitars, the bass, the drums or the overall mix... Everything sounds mch much better on that album. And I repeat, it has nothing to do with the content of the music itself.

[phatnonphatness]

All three songs so far have been good without being great. Hoping the rest of Dust is a little different.

[SHEAKENBAKEN]

There's no way I'm going to dig myself out of the hole I created from when I made such a naive post yesterday, so while I admit what I said was wrong in the way it was phrased, I'd still like to present my case.

What I meant when I said "they all sound the same" I could have easily added an extra "to me" at the end it wouldn't have been so final as "they all sound the same." So obviously I'm not saying other people wouldn't think it sounds different than other bands production. But as an example of what I was referring to at the time; I would argue that to me a song like "Immortalized" off of Disturbed's same-titled album, sounds the same production-wise as "My Last Mistake". Yet they are both produced by different people.

Now, there are obviously songs that sound different production wise when put side/side with Tremonti; For instance, If I listen to Breaking Benjamin or A7x or 3DG, they sound different than Tremonti, but it's something I only register when it's in comparison. Listen to them separate, you could tell me they were produced by Elvis as well and I would believe you. Maybe that is because my hearing is blessed as to be so bad that It's not easily distinguishable? I don't know. I only distinguish different sounding bands and songs by different models and tones and effects of instruments used rather than who produced the album.

Now please, can we move on? This is a thread for the DUST album, not a discussion of production and Shea's appalling hearing.

What does everyone guess the next pre-release track will be? There's still one left, right?

[Ubik]

Kind of hoping it's the Cage because I wasn't amazed by the clip (though the bridge was good) and I could do with not burning out another song before the release

[SHEAKENBAKEN]

Kind of hoping it's the Cage because I wasn't amazed by the clip (though the bridge was good) and I could do with not burning out another song before the release

While I liked what I heard from The Cage, I personally wouldn't want that or Catching Fire to be one of the pre-release ones. They already spoiled like 1/3 of both songs in those preview videos on YouTube, so I'd rather get something completely new, like Rising Storm or Never Wrong as I have no clue what to expect from those songs even from the LP reviews, but then again, maybe going with one of the preview videos would be better because then there's still more of the album left unheard before it's official release?

[BSC]

But as an example of what I was referring to at the time; I would argue that to me a song like "Immortalized" off of Disturbed's same-titled album, sounds the same production-wise as "My Last Mistake". Yet they are both produced by different people.

Now, there are obviously songs that sound different production wise when put side/side with Tremonti; For instance, If I listen to Breaking Benjamin or A7x or 3DG, they sound different than Tremonti, but it's something I only register when it's in comparison. Listen to them separate, you could tell me they were produced by Elvis as well and I would believe you. Maybe that is because my hearing is blessed as to be so bad that It's not easily distinguishable? I don't know. I only distinguish different sounding bands and songs by different models and tones and effects of instruments used rather than who produced the album.

I understand what you're saying in context of the examples you've given, you're comparing hard rock artists to other hard rock artists, so I guess you're not going to hear too much of a difference in the production.

If you listen to something like Steven Wilson's last album and then listen to something like Tremonti I think you'll understand where some people are coming from, although you could argue that's an extreme example. I can't think of many hard rock bands that do sound good production-wise on their albums (but I don't listen to much modern hard rock anyway).

To be honest, I'd like to be less picky about production, once you listen to a really good sounding album, you start to notice that others albums don't sound so great. I find there's some albums I can't enjoy as much because of the production.

[nagpo]

-1
Non sense.
Strange remarks for someone who is such a fan of those boring boring boring all-sound-the-same Creed tunes. Songwriting , production and (live) performance so very much better evolved in AB and Tremonti. Forget about the poppy-past. Mark developed more towards real rock and metal. Love every output if these bands so much !

I could name each creed song correctly withing the first 5 seconds of listening to it but I couldn't say the same for tremonti songs. It's also easier to play metal than it is to play acoustic stuff or slower paced things that require precise timing to sound right.

Point is, if you don't like it, feel free to move on, and patiently wait for ABV. No one forced you to buy or even check out these tracks (especially if you had low expectations going in)... sorry you go after music you don't even care about.

First of all every member on this forum can post whatever they want as long as it pertains to the rules. Secondly, this is not a mark tremonti safespace. People are allowed to have differing opinions on his solo output and most importantly, they can share those thoughts.

I for one am not the biggest fan of his solo career. I've shared criticisms. Maybe some not so nice words. Fine. But I also like some of his solo stuff. I don't think he's perfect. And I don't spend all my time shitting on him. But I'm allowed to share these thoughts. When Stapp released his second solo album did I tell people shitting on "Jesus was a Rockstar" to just be quiet and wait for the next AB in their little corner of the board? I don't think so. They have as much of a right as I do to post critically or even negatively about the output of a musician. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

[poshisjarker]

By the way, from my end on this...just to be clear for myself, my hope isn't that negative comments are suppressed. I actually really like music conversation/debate and i think it's fun to have passion one way or another. That's why i initially posted. I will say as a challenge that i think it would be more helpful if people would actually give examples of songs and then explain how certain songs are just like older ones. With MLM and Betray Me for example...I have no idea what two songs people would claim match those but i'm curious what people would find. It probably won't change my opinion cause to my ear those two songs are quite unique in Tremonti's discography. But hey that's what this is about, right? No worries or hard feelings. It's part of why i check this site often. I enjoy that side of it. Not everyone agrees. That's natural

[poshisjarker]

I will say that one thing I think i hope Mark does eventually is incorporate more groove/funkish based riffs that hold huge percussive weight...ya know? May just not be his thing and that's ok with me. Like I said, i love him for what he is. But i'll give a few examples...I mentioned King's X above. Great example. Heck just the song Dogman really hits that mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYx50Y5 ... gay6fNWVSm
Maybe he could take some influence from Nuno. Countless examples of sweet Extreme songs where you can tell Nuno is just playing free and letting loose. The song always benefits cause it drives the tune. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_7SeJOjeuI
Also...if you haven't heard Dorje, check this out. Promising young band that really grooves hard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3SvTL2_sAU
(Alter Bridge actually mentioned a lot in the comments lol...)

[poshisjarker]

But anyway back to Dust...I personally hope the next released song, whichever it is, has a Scott Stapp flute solo.

[Crumbso]

I personally am fine with the straight-foward direction of Tremonti. It works better for live shows and both Cauterize and the current Dust songs are a quantum leap forward from All I Was in terms of middle sections and general band performance.

Leave AB for the twisty turny stuff (something I hope they keep pushing) it wouldn't suit the balls to the wall style of Tremonti as a band. I love what Tremonti is doing. Keep pushing the speed and the intense vocals with a few unexpected bridges and I'm happy as larry, the more disappointing songs are the middle of the road ones like Sympathy and Another Heart. I like when they are pushing hard but within the confines of their chosen style.

On a production note, yes it's still too compressed (the bass drum on the Cauterize intro just destroys all clarity and makes it sound like the speakers are breaking) but every time Elvis works with the band it sounds better than the preceding record. Compare ABIII to Fortress and All I Was to Dusterize and you can see the progression. Personally I wouldn't want a return to the Creed sound, the production of MOP and HC are their weakest points imho. There's too much disconnect between the instruments and the drums + guitar sound empty which results in a lack of power and certainly (to my ears anyway) dates the record.

If I were to cite an example of a superbly produced modern hard rock band then both Echoes, Silence, Patience & Grace and Wasting Light by the Foo Fighters are the yard stick. Queens of the Stone Age also completely hit it out the park with ...Like Clockwork. Power, clarity and seperation with a great roomy sound that draws you in. Tremonti could certainly benefit from a more natural sound but Elvis has certainly come on in leaps and bounds since the Blackbird/ABIII era.

EDIT: Oh yeah and System of a Down always sounded absolutely fantastic production wise.

[poshisjarker]

I personally am fine with the straight-foward direction of Tremonti. It works better for live shows and both Cauterize and the current Dust songs are a quantum leap forward from All I Was in terms of middle sections and general band performance.

Leave AB for the twisty turny stuff (something I hope they keep pushing) it wouldn't suit the balls to the wall style of Tremonti as a band. I love what Tremonti is doing. Keep pushing the speed and the intense vocals with a few unexpected bridges and I'm happy as larry, the more disappointing songs are the middle of the road ones like Sympathy and Another Heart. I like when they are pushing hard but within the confines of their chosen style.

Bingo. Couldn't agree more with ya man