Chick-Fil-A

[Ubik]

So you're changing your argument from "if everyone was like this, we'd die out", to "this thing slots better into this hole than that one"? People aren't designed to do anything, we've just evolved a system that allows reproduction. If some people choose not to use it, that's their choice and they shouldn't have rights removed from them because of it.

And yes, it's natural for those things to occur, just not commonplace.

[Vaux]

Both of my arguments still apply. It's the same argument, that it's not supposed to be that way. Humans have evolved, but reproduction had to have been one of the first things otherwise we would never have evolved, right? All animals are designed to do things. They are products of their environment.

And I suppose it is natural for those things to occur, those are nature's mistakes. It does tend to happen, but it's not the way it was supposed to be.

[Vaux]

*disregard.

[agny]

Please don't attempt to invoke evolutionary biology in defense of your personal ick reaction to others' behavior when you do not understand evolutionary biology. You are mixing design by a supernatural designer, adaptation, and a constantly changing definition of "natural".

Rape is definitely natural, used by males of many, many species, and a really excellent way to make sure your genes make it into the next generation as many times as possible. Gonna advocate for that?

Speaking of rapists... rapists, murderers, child abusers, spouse abusers, etc. can all get and stay married. And they can get divorced and remarried as many times as they like. Just as long as they pick someone with different slots and tabs. And I'm done with this thread.

[Nick]

Please don't attempt to invoke evolutionary biology in defense of your personal ick reaction to others' behavior when you do not understand evolutionary biology. You are mixing design by a supernatural designer, adaptation, and a constantly changing definition of "natural".

Rape is definitely natural, used by males of many, many species, and a really excellent way to make sure your genes make it into the next generation as many times as possible. Gonna advocate for that?

Speaking of rapists... rapists, murderers, child abusers, spouse abusers, etc. can all get and stay married. And they can get divorced and remarried as many times as they like. Just as long as they pick someone with different slots and tabs. And I'm done with this thread.

Great arguments but yeah, I don't blame you for being done with this argument. As I see it, any argument against gay marriage, once stripped of poor argumentation, eventually devolves into "Ew, I don't like it." That's no basis for law and rarely a thing that's possible to discuss otherwise with, especially considering the clumsiness of the internet.

[Ubik]

Both of my arguments still apply. It's the same argument, that it's not supposed to be that way. Humans have evolved, but reproduction had to have been one of the first things otherwise we would never have evolved, right? All animals are designed to do things. They are products of their environment.

And I suppose it is natural for those things to occur, those are nature's mistakes. It does tend to happen, but it's not the way it was supposed to be.

Children aren't "designed" to be conceived in test tubes either, but thankfully for the millions that are alive today due to it, they can be. Human beings are not "designed" to be able to reach the surface of the moon, and the principle of self-preservation doesn't mesh well with those who sacrifice their own lives in war and protest in honour of higher ideals. Human beings do plenty of things beyond the basic functions of our flesh and blood, none of them are unnatural.

[Vaux]

Please don't attempt to invoke evolutionary biology in defense of your personal ick reaction to others' behavior when you do not understand evolutionary biology. You are mixing design by a supernatural designer, adaptation, and a constantly changing definition of "natural".

Rape is definitely natural, used by males of many, many species, and a really excellent way to make sure your genes make it into the next generation as many times as possible. Gonna advocate for that?

Speaking of rapists... rapists, murderers, child abusers, spouse abusers, etc. can all get and stay married. And they can get divorced and remarried as many times as they like. Just as long as they pick someone with different slots and tabs. And I'm done with this thread.

If you're done that's fine, but I will respond anyways. I am not sure where you see the changing definition of natural. I don't believe in and have not been referring to a supernatural designer so throw that out. I guess I meant design as in function. Kind of like my lungs are designed to enable me to breathe. A fish is designed to be able to swim. Not designed by a person, but designed by nature or adaptation or whatever, I am not an expert.

Rape may be natural for some species like ducks or whatever, but that is what is natural for them, not us. Not every animal species is the same. All the same rules don't apply.

And just because murderers can get married doesn't have much bearing on gays being married. They can get married because they are male and female, it has nothing to do with who they are and what they have done.

[Vaux]

Both of my arguments still apply. It's the same argument, that it's not supposed to be that way. Humans have evolved, but reproduction had to have been one of the first things otherwise we would never have evolved, right? All animals are designed to do things. They are products of their environment.

And I suppose it is natural for those things to occur, those are nature's mistakes. It does tend to happen, but it's not the way it was supposed to be.

Children aren't "designed" to be conceived in test tubes either, but thankfully for the millions that are alive today due to it, they can be. Human beings are not "designed" to be able to reach the surface of the moon, and the principle of self-preservation doesn't mesh well with those who sacrifice their own lives in war and protest in honour of higher ideals. Human beings do plenty of things beyond the basic functions of our flesh and blood, none of them are unnatural.

That is a good point. Ethics comes in to play for all of the things you mention. Is it correct to do these things? It's debatable. Technology enables us to do lots of things we were not able to do, and soon it will come into question if we should be doing these things or not. We might be able to stop aging or live forever, but they might not be things we should be doing.

[Vaux]

Humans do unnatural things all of the time. Ice skating for instance. But if everyone was ice skating it wouldn't lead to the extinction of the human species like if everyone was gay would. So it's not quite the same.

I would guess that anything a human does that if we all collectively did would lead to the extinction of the species is probably not a right thing to do.

[Ubik]

That is a good point. Ethics comes in to play for all of the things you mention. Is it correct to do these things? It's debatable. Technology enables us to do lots of things we were not able to do, and soon it will come into question if we should be doing these things or not. We might be able to stop aging or live forever, but they might not be things we should be doing.

But they're all a natural extension of our primary asset - self awareness and freedom of thought. Once you accept that rebelling against strict evolutionary impulses (you do this just by wearing a condom) is a perfectly natural and human occurrence, you have to accept that something like homosexuality is as well (it's also something that plenty of animals exhibit).

I would guess that anything a human does that if we all collectively did would lead to the extinction of the species is probably not a right thing to do.

As I've already said, you can't use that argument unless you're also willing to use it against people that don't ever wish to have children, or people that are infertile. If all couples didn't wish to have children, we'd die out. Why is this never ever worried about? Because it's absurd. People are never going to reject the concept of children en masse, just like people aren't going to become universally homosexual. It's completely irrelevant.

[Jim]

Did he say "Supernatural Designer"...?

[Josiah]

its delicious, so idgaf

[Josiah]

The chicken...not whatever else you guys are talking about.

[ThravRande]

The chicken...not whatever else you guys are talking about.

Saved yourself. I imagine Zaz will still get you, though.

[Peyton]

why the hell does it have to be that everybody is supposed to 'be' a certain way....I'm sick of all the politically correct bull...

it makes no sense to me that there could be 10,000 people in agreement with something... but if one DISAGREES... then the 10,000 have to change to suit the one... (thinking about something like saying a prayer before a ballgame or something)....

who do these mayors think they're 'punishing' ..... ?

[Ashlee]

I just want to point out, based on information from friends who have applied to/worked there, that many of the employees are Christians or posing as Christians. When you apply you are asked to write a 2000 word testimony about your religious testimony. If you are found to be gay or otherwise affront Mr. Cathy's religion, you are fired. This seems like it should be illegal, but apparently it can be argued that the employee agreed to live by the company's values when they applied and were fired not because they were gay, but because they were not upholding the company's values.

I understand the chicken is delicious, but this goes so much further than one guy spouting off damaging religious rhetoric. I say let them marry and be as miserable as they'd like.

[Ubik]

That's a fairly clear case of discrimination based on sexuality so certainly should be illegal.

[Andy92]

I'm thinking each individual store has its own sort of policy set up, although some are stricter than others. Apparently since the franchise is independently owned, they can ask religious questions in interviews without it being illegal under federal discrimination laws. Employees/rejected employees do have the right to sue as individuals if they feel they've been discriminated though, and I was reading an article earlier where the restaurant has had around a dozen lawsuit cases over the past 20 years or so.

So basically, they aren't doing anything that's technically illegal, but civil cases can arise from it. Not honestly too sure about the specifics behind it, I'm reading stuff from a five year old Forbes article lol. I have some friends that work at the restaurant, and to my knowledge they didn't have to fill out a testimony (I could ask though). That could've been a policy set up in an store going overkill.

[ALTERSTEVE]

As I see it, any argument against gay marriage, once stripped of poor argumentation, eventually devolves into "Ew, I don't like it."

Hmm. I don't know if that's true all the time.

I really do want to talk about my point of view on this, but I much prefer having an actual discussion about politics than debating. Unfortunately, these discussions always turn into debates and nobody ever learns anything. Plus, I feel expressing my opinions here would force me to talk about my religious beliefs as well (since I don't separate my beliefs into "religious" and "political" categories like other people do), and that would likely force me to talk about my other religious beliefs to provide some context and reasoning -- but this isn't the place to do any of that.

[phatnonphatness]

Why not start another thread?