You Win Or You Die - Game Of Thrones Mafia

[Andy92]

Okay so Timo not totally busted.

Still voting for him.

[zazthespaz]

Which, @Cam I guess I might as well bring up now. I know you don't trust me, and this is far from foolproof. But if Timo comes up mafia, use your doctor protection on Micky. I promise it won't be a waste of time, even if they jail you. There are... many ways this can go wrong, but I've sent my night action in on you already so we can get another night of investigating out of Micky. One of us probably dies this way, but at least we can save the person we think is the cop.

For the record, I was going to do this anyway! But now that you're asking me to I'm a little concerned. I went through the posts of those who listed their player rankings and with the exception of me, Inconquerable is always listed neutral or townie (the only "green" by Timo which is also concerning) so I'm going to stick with this plan. But if you are who I think you might be, I think it'd be in our best interest for you to target Micky at night in case he is jailed and not attacked.

[Inconquerable]

Which, @Cam I guess I might as well bring up now. I know you don't trust me, and this is far from foolproof. But if Timo comes up mafia, use your doctor protection on Micky. I promise it won't be a waste of time, even if they jail you. There are... many ways this can go wrong, but I've sent my night action in on you already so we can get another night of investigating out of Micky. One of us probably dies this way, but at least we can save the person we think is the cop.

For the record, I was going to do this anyway! But now that you're asking me to I'm a little concerned. I went through the posts of those who listed their player rankings and with the exception of me, Inconquerable is always listed neutral or townie (the only "green" by Timo which is also concerning) so I'm going to stick with this plan. But if you are who I think you might be, I think it'd be in our best interest for you to target Micky at night in case he is jailed and not attacked.

I can do that, it won't prevent his death though. I need a bit of time to think about something, would you be game for some weird possibility posts? I'm thinking mafia did something real weird today but need a bit of time to come to a real conclusion. And you're not wrapped up in it as far as I can tell.

Really need Silver around.

@UBIK just a simple question, will you be posting a reads list? A no is fine, I just want to know.

[Ubik]

Broadly this but am not gonna write any reasons or take follow-ups, this is just how I see it:

Micky
Summer - Andy
zaz
Inc - Silver
Timo

If Timo is maf I'll probably be voting for someone in the row above him tomorrow, should I still be around.

EDIT - Okay Silver's not turning up before I sleep so I'll make this official:

DEADLINE VOTE: TIMO

[Inconquerable]

Broadly this but am not gonna write any reasons or take follow-ups, this is just how I see it:

This felt... unnecessary? But ok thanks. Without the tiers defined it's up for interpretation, but that's ok. I don't have full reads from everybody anyway.

So the hammer has dropped, Timo's out. If anybody's still around, I'm here to chat. If Timo is mafia, there are still two people to find. Ubik did make it clear that Silver or I would be where he goes next. I can infer where most people will be going if the above is true.

If Timo isn't mafia, I'm pretty sure we're done. Especially if mafia has the Littlefinger role. If they do we're done. So while I was thinking that Timo was the jailer, I'm actually hoping that he was Littlefinger. Course, we won't know. Something just feels off to me after the last few hours. Guess we'll find out.

[The Dissident]

Will update this in the morning, just got home and am super tired. Consider the night phase to have begun.

I’m also 85% sure Timo is eliminated but am too tired to do the count atm

[zazthespaz]

I know it’s technically night phase, but will we find out Timo’s alignment? My night action relies on knowing that.

[The Dissident]

Timotheus has been eliminated. He was GUILTY. Night phase will end at 10pm Pacific July 1st

[The Dissident]

Town comes together in the morning, they notice that Zazthespaz is missing, they look for him in his home and find his body thrown on the floor multiple stab wounds cleary visible. Upon inspection it is clear he was Innocent.

Day 3 Has begun, and will end on July 3rd at 10pm Pacific. 4 Votes required to eliminate a player.

[Ubik]

Okay, so zaz was the doc. I know he and Inc were cooking up some kind of Micky protection last night so a lot depends on whether that worked as planned.

If Micky was able to investigate, I think we can maybe draw from this that they don't have the Mountain. If they did, they'd probably have just gone for the guaranteed death on Micky as the pretty much confirmed townie cop without worrying about the doctor.

Dissident - could we get a final vote tally from the end of day 2 if possible? And would Littlefinger's night action show up here?

[Inconquerable]

So first, Cam, very sorry that I didn't trust you early on in day two. Later today I'll go through your posts to see if we can get any information that we may have missed like I did with Lotha.

Second, Micky, were you able to investigate anybody last night? Are you comfortable with sharing your findings?

Now... Mr. U. Bik,

I have some questions for you. Do you often agree with your biggest mafia read?

Timo's post explaining how Cam and Micky could be the mafia team.
Your post, in which you say that Cam and Micky are "almost certainly" the mafia team if it's not Timo.

I also want to bring to light THIS post, in which you react to Timo's doctor claim. In a vacuum, this looks ok. But when compared to your reaction to Cam's doctor claim earlier in the game... well you just don't react to it after it happened. HERE is the page where Andy spells it out plain as day. But you seem unconcerned about it HERE where you write about my mis-wording your point. You're more concerned with how you look, a typical mafia concern. I didn't read into that post any mafia intentions originally, but you seem to care very much about the way you're coming across, while just... ignoring Cam's doctor claim. In fact you don't talk about it for... a long time. In between you talk about mechanics, twice. And when you finally talk about it, you don't really come to any sort of conclusion on it, instead preferring to wait to see what happens in the night before coming to a conclusion. Which again, on its own, looks fine, but this was seven hours later, and not one post in between reacting to the claim.

Which makes me question why you were so outraged at Timo? The simplest answer? It's theatre. Micky outed Timo as mafia, Timo knew he was probably going down for it, claimed doctor, and you reacted as you did to keep your name from being associated with his. So let's talk about this! How do you respond?

---------------------------------

For the record, here is my updated reads list after night two.

TOWN
Andy
Micky
Silver

MAFIA
Summer
Ubik

I'm happy to discuss this and anything else.

[Micky]

I was in jail last night so I couldn’t investigate anyone. Thanks for arresting me and saving me from certain death, whoever you are!

[Ubik]

EDIT - This took so long to write I missed Micky's. Pretty interesting.

So first, Cam, very sorry that I didn't trust you early on in day two. Later today I'll go through your posts to see if we can get any information that we may have missed like I did with Lotha.

Second, Micky, were you able to investigate anybody last night? Are you comfortable with sharing your findings?

Now... Mr. U. Bik,

I have some questions for you. Do you often agree with your biggest mafia read?

Timo's post explaining how Cam and Micky could be the mafia team.
Your post, in which you say that Cam and Micky are "almost certainly" the mafia team if it's not Timo.

I also want to bring to light THIS post, in which you react to Timo's doctor claim. In a vacuum, this looks ok. But when compared to your reaction to Cam's doctor claim earlier in the game... well you just don't react to it after it happened. HERE is the page where Andy spells it out plain as day. But you seem unconcerned about it HERE where you write about my mis-wording your point. You're more concerned with how you look, a typical mafia concern. I didn't read into that post any mafia intentions originally, but you seem to care very much about the way you're coming across, while just... ignoring Cam's doctor claim. In fact you don't talk about it for... a long time. In between you talk about mechanics, twice. And when you finally talk about it, you don't really come to any sort of conclusion on it, instead preferring to wait to see what happens in the night before coming to a conclusion. Which again, on its own, looks fine, but this was seven hours later, and not one post in between reacting to the claim.

Which makes me question why you were so outraged at Timo? The simplest answer? It's theatre. Micky outed Timo as mafia, Timo knew he was probably going down for it, claimed doctor, and you reacted as you did to keep your name from being associated with his. So let's talk about this! How do you respond?

---------------------------------

For the record, here is my updated reads list after night two.

TOWN
Andy
Micky
Silver

MAFIA
Summer
Ubik

I'm happy to discuss this and anything else.

It would seem more normal to wait for what Micky has to say before throwing accusations around? But okay.

Agreeing with my mafia read is such an overstatement that I'm not sure what else to say. If Timo turned up as town, he was the doctor. That means zaz was lying and that Micky was lying. This would make them in my eyes, "almost certainly mafia". Not certainly, they could just be playing really weird, but until I had a better explanation I'd be going with them as mafia. You voted for someone after you mistakenly said they couldn't have known they were jailed, so I think I'm on firmer ground than you here. Additionally, Andy said similar prior to my post and agreed with me after, and you haven't picked up on that. He even said it @ing you.

@Incon Well if Timo is the doctor that means Cam lied when he hinted to be the doctor. He could be a different townie role, but unless if he’s the Hound, how likely is that? This has mostly been hashed out in the thread.

If Micky really searched Timo and he was the doctor, he wouldn’t have been guilty.

If Timo is a townie, we have two liars in Cam and Micky. I guess it doesn’t make them both mafia automatically, but they’re definitely both lying in this scenario.

Makes the most sense that Micky is the cop and Cam is the doctor. So I’ll vote for Timo now.

And obviously, I didn't agree with Timo. I voted for him.

As for the doctor stuff, we weren't voting off anyone that night. For some reason you were the one to put that into our heads when you had the (wrong and stated nowhere else in the thread) idea that someone with two votes would be voted out. I had to clarify at that point because I would've needed to make a quick decision on voting for someone or risk someone I thought likelier town would be voted out. zaz could've been doing a lot of things at that point, particularly when he puts "But if it pays off - woo!" in the subject. So I wait and see what happens overnight without jumping to any particularly firm conclusions, but based on my initial thoughts (which I did think for a while about, rather than just post immediately) it seemed unlikely either he or Andy would do that as mafia.

I don't care how I'm coming across, I care about when people try to make me look worse by misrepresenting what I say, which really is a legit mafia tactic. I wanted to draw attention to that so people noticed it, in case you cited it later.

Why was I "outraged" at Timo? I was "outraged" at him (which in this sense just means me saying "FFS Timo" then telling him why I don't buy his argument) because I woke up and saw his doctor claim, and when I was going through the possibilities the night before it hadn't even entered my head. He made me do extra reading, which given the length of some posts in this thread was a bit of a pain. Like I say in the very post you're citing, nothing he'd said up to that point suggested he doubted zaz as doctor. He said it was a weird situation, but that's fluffy enough to spin any direction. And unlike the Lotha possibility, this time we had clear ways to double check - to see if zaz backed him up, or if we had a cop counterclaim. I like waiting for actual information and make decisions based on that. Once zaz didn't back him up, there was only the cop possibility left. It didn't come through, I voted him out. I prefer my reaction to yours, where you quickly notice you hadn't included Timo in your list of who would benefit from the mafia kill, and then unveil a post you'd been unsure on, but not mentioning despite having him near the top of your reads.

Now, like I said before, I'm waiting on Micky. I'm not going to get in really long quote trains with you, because honestly at this point I see that as something you're doing to confuse people. Your argument is weak and based on a very narrow perspective despite claiming you're taking in the bigger picture. Didn't you say it was suspicious when people move their read to opposite ends of their lists without good reason? This is a genuine question, I think I remember you saying but honestly there's been so much stuff that I can't pinpoint it. But if you did - you do that exact thing with Summer based on her saying she believed zaz. You've now done the same with me because of arguments that I think are weak. You constantly ask people for their reads despite no-one in this game really having done that before, and some people are clearly getting a little frustrated with it, which could clearly be one of the goals, and it could also be a way of targeting night kills better. Until I hear from Micky I have you as my number 1 suspect.

I'm sorry if this comes across as a little abrupt, but I've had the sense for a long time that you were setting me up for this so I'm not going to respond meekly.

[Inconquerable]

I was in jail last night so I couldn’t investigate anyone. Thanks for arresting me and saving me from certain death, whoever you are!

I had thought about de-jailing you so you could investigate but used it on Cam in the end. But at least you're still here!

Did you have anybody in mind for who you would have investigated? If so, why would you have picked that person?

[Inconquerable]

It would seem more normal to wait for what Micky has to say before throwing accusations around? But okay.

Agreeing with my mafia read is such an overstatement that I'm not sure what else to say. If Timo turned up as town, he was the doctor. That means zaz was lying and that Micky was lying. This would make them in my eyes, "almost certainly mafia". Not certainly, they could just be playing really weird, but until I had a better explanation I'd be going with them as mafia. You voted for someone after you mistakenly said they couldn't have known they were jailed, so I think I'm on firmer ground than you here. Additionally, Andy said similar prior to my post and agreed with me after, and you haven't picked up on that. He even said it @ing you.

@Incon Well if Timo is the doctor that means Cam lied when he hinted to be the doctor. He could be a different townie role, but unless if he’s the Hound, how likely is that? This has mostly been hashed out in the thread.

If Micky really searched Timo and he was the doctor, he wouldn’t have been guilty.

If Timo is a townie, we have two liars in Cam and Micky. I guess it doesn’t make them both mafia automatically, but they’re definitely both lying in this scenario.

Makes the most sense that Micky is the cop and Cam is the doctor. So I’ll vote for Timo now.

And obviously, I didn't agree with Timo. I voted for him.

God you fill your posts with lots of shade as mafia huh? And you throw Andy under the bus while you're at it! Haven't seen this out of you before. Anyway, I don't need to wait for Micky to post his investigation if I have leads of my own. I'm not going to rely on somebody else to do the work for me. There are two mafia left, he can only check out one player per night. This is why I wanted to keep the thread going in day two. Everybody assumed Timo was mafia (rightly so in the end), but there were still two mafia to find. Why aren't we talking about who his partners could be? Ending voting early only benefits mafia because everybody else can't talk in the thread, that's why I didn't throw a vote down.

And you did agree with Timo on Cam/Micky being a team. To me, there's no way it was possible unless they were doing some VERY fancy play, and I've stated as much in the thread. And I know you're trying to paint a picture here with your defence, but I used your hedgy "almost fairly certain" quote directly in my case so as not to mis-word your posts again. I've seen you doing this quite a bit as well, saying something without conviction and giving yourself an out in case it's wrong.

My reasons for voting Cam are all over the beginning of day two. To simplify it in one sentence as you have is disingenuous, and you've done this before too. Yeah I've seen Andy's post, I very strongly town read Andy. I'm not saying he's 100% cleared, and he's said some things that I question, but of the non-mechanically cleared players (Micky), I think he's been the most townie of anybody. And voting for Timo doesn't automatically mean that you're town. You know that. Mafia vote each other out all the time to save themselves.

As for the doctor stuff, we weren't voting off anyone that night. For some reason you were the one to put that into our heads when you had the (wrong and stated nowhere else in the thread) idea that someone with two votes would be voted out. I had to clarify at that point because I would've needed to make a quick decision on voting for someone or risk someone I thought likelier town would be voted out. zaz could've been doing a lot of things at that point, particularly when he puts "But if it pays off - woo!" in the subject. So I wait and see what happens overnight without jumping to any particularly firm conclusions, but based on my initial thoughts (which I did think for a while about, rather than just post immediately) it seemed unlikely either he or Andy would do that as mafia.

So I know this is not really worth mentioning, but I had the idea that if somebody had the most votes (even if it wasn't enough) by end of day in a deadline phase in my head because that's how it worked in the Champs game. It wasn't "must be five (or whatever the number is) or no one dies" as it is here. I wasn't accusing you based on the mechanics posts, I am accusing you because you seem far more interested in clearing up a semantics error than the doctor claim.

I don't care how I'm coming across, I care about when people try to make me look worse by misrepresenting what I say, which really is a legit mafia tactic. I wanted to draw attention to that so people noticed it, in case you cited it later.

I legitimately was not trying to misrepresent what you were saying. You've brought this up a few times since then (and again, gave an out of "Inc recanted which goes in her favour" but you're calling it a mafia tactic now.

Why was I "outraged" at Timo? I was "outraged" at him (which in this sense just means me saying "FFS Timo" then telling him why I don't buy his argument) because I woke up and saw his doctor claim, and when I was going through the possibilities the night before it hadn't even entered my head. He made me do extra reading, which given the length of some posts in this thread was a bit of a pain. Like I say in the very post you're citing, nothing he'd said up to that point suggested he doubted zaz as doctor. He said it was a weird situation, but that's fluffy enough to spin any direction. And unlike the Lotha possibility, this time we had clear ways to double check - to see if zaz backed him up, or if we had a cop counterclaim. I like waiting for actual information and make decisions based on that. Once zaz didn't back him up, there was only the cop possibility left. It didn't come through, I voted him out. I prefer my reaction to yours, where you quickly notice you hadn't included Timo in your list of who would benefit from the mafia kill, and then unveil a post you'd been unsure on, but not mentioning despite having him near the top of your reads.

More shade, but ok let's talk about it. Yeah I forgot Timo in my post about night kill reasons and he came up mafia. As a mafia partner with someone, you make sure you talk about your other partners because if something like this happens, it's going to be brought up. You can believe me or not, it was a legitimate mistake. It's worth noting to me that you didn't bring up having an issue with it until I started casing you.

Now, like I said before, I'm waiting on Micky. I'm not going to get in really long quote trains with you, because honestly at this point I see that as something you're doing to confuse people. Your argument is weak and based on a very narrow perspective despite claiming you're taking in the bigger picture. Didn't you say it was suspicious when people move their read to opposite ends of their lists without good reason? This is a genuine question, I think I remember you saying but honestly there's been so much stuff that I can't pinpoint it. But if you did - you do that exact thing with Summer based on her saying she believed zaz. You've now done the same with me because of arguments that I think are weak. You constantly ask people for their reads despite no-one in this game really having done that before, and some people are clearly getting a little frustrated with it, which could clearly be one of the goals, and it could also be a way of targeting night kills better. Until I hear from Micky I have you as my number 1 suspect.

I'm sorry if this comes across as a little abrupt, but I've had the sense for a long time that you were setting me up for this so I'm not going to respond meekly.

You don't have to respond if you don't want to, that's up to you. I did say it was suspicious the way that Summer was bouncing me up and down her reads list. But the key difference, she did it in the same day phase, and then again in the next phase based on me suspecting Cam. You realize we've had a flip right? I've spent the last however many hours since Dissident posted that Timo was guilty reevaluating my reads. I have also stated multiple times how I've been nervous about you, so of course I was going to reevaluate your position on my list. Unfortunately, I found things that I didn't like, and this response didn't help to change my opinion. I have things between you and Summer that connect you two as potential mafia partners as well, and I'm happy to talk about them if anybody wants to hear them today.

And for what it's worth, going back to the Andy bit earlier, I also reevaluated him during the night and feel fine about him still even with the flip.

And for everybody else, if you're uncomfortable with me asking for reads and getting frustrated with it, please do tell me. I'm not an ogre, I'm not trying to make the game less fun. I'm doing what I can do solve the game, and having the reads lists helps me do that. For example I can look at Timo's reads lists and see that he has Ubik and Summer in his neutral category. That's a pretty safe spot to put partners in. He has the two confirmed townies in his mafia group with Silver, a very easy mafia target. That is why I ask for reads lists. If anybody has a legitimate problem with it, let's talk when the game is over.

And hey, I had to make you make a choice between myself or Silver somehow!

[Micky]

I was in jail last night so I couldn’t investigate anyone. Thanks for arresting me and saving me from certain death, whoever you are!

I had thought about de-jailing you so you could investigate but used it on Cam in the end. But at least you're still here!

Did you have anybody in mind for who you would have investigated? If so, why would you have picked that person?

I’m going to keep that close to the chest for now. As the day phase moves on, I will see how I’m feeling about everyone and decide to reveal

[Inconquerable]

@SILVER when you get on, would you be willing to tell us if you were a poison target on night one? I got a notification from Dissident indicating that I either de-jailed you (which seems unlikely given Cam was jailed, but there could be a town jailer as well) or that the medicine I gave you saved you from being poisoned. This would be helpful because if you were saved from poisoning, we know we have (or had) Qyburn in the game. If you'd rather not answer I understand that as well.

EDIT: Sorry, Micky didn't see your post. Totally understood! Enjoy your time with your brother. =)

[Micky]

@SILVER when you get on, would you be willing to tell us if you were a poison target on night one? I got a notification from Dissident indicating that I either de-jailed you (which seems unlikely given Cam was jailed, but there could be a town jailer as well) or that the medicine I gave you saved you from being poisoned. This would be helpful because if you were saved from poisoning, we know we have (or had) Qyburn in the game. If you'd rather not answer I understand that as well.

EDIT: Sorry, Micky didn't see your post. Totally understood! Enjoy your time with your brother. =)

So I have to say I’m torn on Silver at the moment. The lack of posting has me wondering if she’s townie and just doesn’t care, or if she’s mafia again and trying to skate by,

My brother said thanks haha. We were FaceTiming. He’s a big “Christmas everyday” kinda guy lol

[Ubik]

Just want to say something that anyone can check - look at my previous town games when I've been directly accused or someone is acting very mafia to me - I don't go in softly. When Lotha was going for me in the last game, I was not polite and I directly called her out (read pages 11 and 12). You have said I was incredibly townie in that game. In the Purgatory game when I thought Timo was mafia (okay this is a little harder to check because Braingle is involved, but it's from about p26 on) - again, I was dismissive of his posts and called him out. I don't think it's fair to say this has never been seen from me before. I literally engineered a vote change against Micky because I thought it might help us win, I don't tiptoe around. Just because you happen to be the nicest person in the world normally, doesn't mean I can't call you out if I think you're a mafia trying to win.

[Micky]

Ubik, I love you buddy but you are scary in mafia lol